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Full Version: FE Debate I: Can Vatican II can be reconciled with Tradition?
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The Thrilla in FE-Villa!


The topic of this debate, as determined by the poll in this thread, is "Can Vatican II can be reconciled with Tradition?"

Arguing for the YES side is prie dieu -- a.k.a. Prie Ali.

Arguing for the NO side is jovan66102 -- a.k.a. Smokin' Joe-van Frazier.

How This Debate Will Go

1. Each side makes a brief, one paragraph introduction of around 500 words.

2. The first side (determined by me using some random method) makes a post outlining his argument.

3. The second side can then cross-examine the first side (getting answers only, not responding to them) only for the purposes of clarification -- NOT debate.

4. The second side gives their main argument outline as per #2 above.

5. The first side can then cross-examine the first debater, per #3 above.

6. The second debater writes a rebuttal post.

7. The first debater writes a rebuttal post.

8. The first side rebuts again.

9. The second side rebuts again.

10. The winner is declared by poll.


Who Begins And How I've Determined This

I will place two cans of Friskies (her favorite brand) wet food IN GRAVY (most important) in front of the FE Mascot, my beloved Marta Maddalena, upon whom you may gaze here:

[Image: marta7.jpg]
Is she not beautiful?

One can is Turkey and GIBLETS in Gravy. This can will represent the YES side.  The second can is Turkey and CHEESE Dinner in Gravy. This can will represent the NO side.  I am just now about to put both in front of Marta, equidistant from her, and whichever she touches first will indicate the side that begins.  Here we go...

Marta has chosen the YES side.

Prie Ali, please begin with your opening statement of about 500 words.

Please, no one else post in this thread until it's all over!

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee!

A spectre is haunting the Church — the spectre of Vatican II.

But it is not the Second Vatican Council itself that haunts us, it is the false spirit of Vatican II that has possessed the weak and sinful men of Holy Mother Church to which so many great evils can be attributed.  I contend that the documents of the Second Vatican Council are reconcilable with Sacred Scripture and Tradition, and with the magisterium of the Church of yesteryear.  I contend that the Second Vatican Council has not taught doctrine contrary to the Catholic faith.  By Adam's folly and the machinations of the infernal enemy of our salvation much confusion has been sown in the Church.  I concede that the documents of the Council themselves have aided in this confusion due to their poor construction and lacklustre presentation.  But when read within the full light of Catholic history, these difficulties can be overcome.  The Church has always faced crises, especially because of the conduct of her members.  A distinction must be maintained between the sinful and erroneous actions of ecclesiastics and laymen, and with the doctrinal teaching of the Church.  The scandal of priests selling indulgences was a very real episode in our history, but would any man assail the doctrine of indulgences because of them?  Today we are in a similar situation.

I recommend Jovan, myself and this debate to Our Blessed Lady as Mediatrix of All Graces and Destroyer of All Heresies.  Whatever the nature of the current crisis in the Church, and whatever the cause of that crisis, it is by this sweet Mother that we shall be delivered.  It is by her constant prayer and intercession on behalf of her children, that we shall pass through this trial—this Passion!—and enter into the light of our own Easter morn'.  Ave, Ave, Ave Maria!

Thank you, Prie Ali.

Smokin' Joe-van, your introductory statement of around 500 words, please.

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Sibilance... sibilance.. Hello? Is this thing working? I know I am!

Smokin' Joe-van, where are you?