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Hi all,
I have a question......maybe more of a brain dump. I've noticed lately that a lot of people are not outright denying a belief in God, but actually use some "Biblical justification" for doing things that are not really so Biblical. Some examples:

1) I have a friend in campus ministry and he said during one of the recent court rulings that occurred while he was a leadership conference the students started cheering when the judge sided with "gay rights."  Still more I've heard some people try to invoke "love the thy neighbor" as a justification of gay marriage. Also, the numbers I've seen with Catholics supporting gay marriage is over 50% and even 61% of young Republicans support gay marriage. Of coarse I do not know if those 50% of Catholics are church-goers or not but I've certainly heard people trying all sorts of apologetics to push it through. I think God's will on homosexual acts is quite clear so hearing from "religious" people that standing against it is a "misinterpretation" is disheartened.

2) The premarital / multi-partner sex issue is another one. Again, I am in agreement with the Church but I have heard people use the same lame rationale to support this one. I've even seen "Christians" claim that polyamory is OK because some Biblical figures had many wives. They claim that jealousy is evil and "sharing" is a sign of love. Again, I can understand this coming from empty secular people but hearing it from Christians (some Catholic) is far more troubling to me.

3) I've heard many Catholics specifically take the attitude that as long as we take care of the poor and advocate for social justice, that is all Jesus cares about. Everything else like sexuality, self-indulgence, etc doesn't matter. Again, this is nonsense to those who have actually read the Bible because Jesus doesn't ONLY talk about the poor. In fact he talks a lot about the rich and what they need to do too. He also wasn't helping the poor at the party where the wine ran out! He had fun too!

Has anyone else noticed this trend? It's becoming more and more pronounced and aside from staying home and turning off the TV there seems to be no escaping it. It can be rather frustrating getting friendly with people who lead others on to think they share the same beliefs you do only to discover that deep down they have a very different idea of things. Maybe its me.....who knows.
yep, it's an uphill battle but it always is an uphill battle.

.
(04-19-2014, 07:05 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: [ -> ]Hi all,
I have a question......maybe more of a brain dump. I've noticed lately that a lot of people are not outright denying a belief in God, but actually use some "Biblical justification" for doing things that are not really so Biblical. Some examples:

1) I have a friend in campus ministry and he said during one of the recent court rulings that occurred while he was a leadership conference the students started cheering when the judge sided with "gay rights."  Still more I've heard some people try to invoke "love the thy neighbor" as a justification of gay marriage. Also, the numbers I've seen with Catholics supporting gay marriage is over 50% and even 61% of young Republicans support gay marriage. Of coarse I do not know if those 50% of Catholics are church-goers or not but I've certainly heard people trying all sorts of apologetics to push it through. I think God's will on homosexual acts is quite clear so hearing from "religious" people that standing against it is a "misinterpretation" is disheartened.

2) The premarital / multi-partner sex issue is another one. Again, I am in agreement with the Church but I have heard people use the same lame rationale to support this one. I've even seen "Christians" claim that polyamory is OK because some Biblical figures had many wives. They claim that jealousy is evil and "sharing" is a sign of love. Again, I can understand this coming from empty secular people but hearing it from Christians (some Catholic) is far more troubling to me.

3) I've heard many Catholics specifically take the attitude that as long as we take care of the poor and advocate for social justice, that is all Jesus cares about. Everything else like sexuality, self-indulgence, etc doesn't matter. Again, this is nonsense to those who have actually read the Bible because Jesus doesn't ONLY talk about the poor. In fact he talks a lot about the rich and what they need to do too. He also wasn't helping the poor at the party where the wine ran out! He had fun too!

Has anyone else noticed this trend? It's becoming more and more pronounced and aside from staying home and turning off the TV there seems to be no escaping it. It can be rather frustrating getting friendly with people who lead others on to think they share the same beliefs you do only to discover that deep down they have a very different idea of things. Maybe its me.....who knows.

I've also seen this trend. Quite common even among my Catholic peers. I remember having to de-friend  some of them on Facebook.

Your third point is interesting, divinesilence80. It is what people think religion should be about: Just helping people. Anything more than that and you are immediately viewed upon with suspicion and pity.

I've reached a point where I just don't care about people's errors, real or imagined, anymore.  :/

They are a lost cause, divinesilence80.

Let them go to Hell, if they so wish it.

Save yourself first and save as many as you can.
(04-19-2014, 08:26 PM)AntoniusMaximus Wrote: [ -> ]yep, it's an uphill battle but it always is an uphill battle.

Uphill is putting it mildly. It's like a vertical ascent lol!

(04-19-2014, 09:18 PM)RedCaves Wrote: [ -> ]I've also seen this trend. Quite common even among my Catholic peers. I remember having to de-friend  some of them on Facebook.

Your third point is interesting, divinesilence80. It is what people think religion should be about: Just helping people. Anything more than that and you are immediately viewed upon with suspicion and pity.

I've reached a point where I just don't care about people's errors, real or imagined, anymore.  :/

They are a lost cause, divinesilence80.

Let them go to Hell, if they so wish it.

Save yourself first and save as many as you can.

I hear ya. I can't really save myself though. That is Christ's position. I'll try my best to pass the message on altered though. I think a lot of this is my POV of evil. Too often I expect to see the "guy in a red suit with a pitchfork" in people. The truth though is that evil is more subtle than that. Sometimes the otherwise non-threatened apparently loving individual is really a "wolf in sheep's clothing." I have a hard time remembering that.
Ultimately (just to play the devils advocate here) our Lord in His teaching on the Last Judgement does only mention social justice issues, not even belief in Him as a criteria for being saved. If love of God and love of neighbor for the sake of God are the greatest commandments, and if Our Lord speaks about judgment in terms of social justice than ultimately that IS all that matters. That's not what I believe but that's how it's often presented. In my opinion it's a superficial narrow view of scripture and tradition but it's wildly popular and if you're not familiar with the scriptures in the wider sense along with the tradition of the Church it can be convincing to many.
All you can do is pray for them. In a way, people who have deluded themselves with nonsense like this are like addicts - they will not get better until, by the grace of God, they genuinely want to. There is no argument that will persuade someone who does not wish to be persuaded.

As formerbuddhist said, the "social justice" error is particularly attractive, since it allows one to accept a large portion of Jesus' teaching, the part that does not offend the world, while setting aside the uncomfortable bits. I try to remind people that Jesus' first statement when he began his public ministry was an echo of the Baptist's refrain: "Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt 4:17) If people insist on pretending that Jesus did not command us to avoid sin in addition to doing good deeds, then they will have the opportunity to defend that proposition to Him at His judgment seat.
There are many absurd positions people hold, not based on logic or reason, but simply because it's what most other people believe, the spirit of the age. It doesn't matter how absurd a position is, if most people believe it it must be true.

I think that people are too distracted by the things of this world to really think things through. They're always so busy that they just don't have any silent time to reflect on things. I think this is why Catholics seem to go with the flow even if the flow is wrong. No one wants to be the odd man out.
(04-20-2014, 08:38 AM)ThomasTheDoubter Wrote: [ -> ]There are many absurd positions people hold, not based on logic or reason, but simply because it's what most other people believe, the spirit of the age. It doesn't matter how absurd a position is, if most people believe it it must be true.

Von Hildebrand touched on this in the Trojan Horse in the City of God (written in 1966).  Essentially, we have reduced everything to slogans instead of actual debate, discussions, and philosophy, etc.  The origin of which began with the late 20s with Soviet and Nazis propaganda machines.  And it has continued down to Hope and Change and whatever the current fad is.  And young people are hooked into this structure hooked and lined. 
(04-19-2014, 09:18 PM)RedCaves Wrote: [ -> ].[I've reached a point where I just don't care about people's errors, real or imagined, anymore.  :/

They are a lost cause, divinesilence80.

Let them go to Hell, if they so wish it.

Save yourself first and save as many as you can.

Very funny, haha. Actually I do think what caused the loss of faith is that the Novus Ordo Mass and some modernism errors, which have totally twisted the image of God and the true faith in people's heat and soul.

What is happening and widespread in the Catholic world today, I have to say, is totally a tragedy. The things we can do, I am afraid, are restricted to a small scale.

When I see in this city, most of the Catholic people going to Novus Ordo mass and receiving communion in the hand while standing, whereas, only around 50-70 people attending diocesan TLM each week, my heart sank. There are hundreds of thousands Catholic people here!

It's no doubt that most of Catholic people are very good and nice, including those NO priests. But their understanding about the faith is a big problem. We can not be sure of God's justice and mercy, but what we can do is to stand firm for the traditional faith.

I do think traditional Catholics are especially chosen by God. Because God allows us to see the beauty of the true faith of his church. Let's offer to God our pains and sorrows caused by the crisis of the church, to follow Him carrying the cross, and try to evangelize the church's tradition as well.

Our Lady of sorrows, pray for us!

(04-19-2014, 11:52 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]Ultimately (just to play the devils advocate here) our Lord in His teaching on the Last Judgement does only mention social justice issues, not even belief in Him as a criteria for being saved. If love of God and love of neighbor for the sake of God are the greatest commandments, and if Our Lord speaks about judgment in terms of social justice than ultimately that IS all that matters. That's not what I believe but that's how it's often presented. In my opinion it's a superficial narrow view of scripture and tradition but it's wildly popular and if you're not familiar with the scriptures in the wider sense along with the tradition of the Church it can be convincing to many.

True, but loving thy neighbor goes much deeper than just helping the poor. Some pro-choice Catholics think abortion is "showing love to the mother." Some say pre-marital sex is love when its clearly not. Love is patient, love is kind, it does not boast! I think people believe in love that is not sacrificial but self-serving (i.e. if it feels good it must be good so do it). There is the problem.
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