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I recently broke away from my former best friend. He is a very devout and committed Catholic, and would be considered orthodox. He believes in the merit and supernaturality of the Medjugorje phenomena. He does not habitually attend Masses in the 1962 rite, although this particular point did not bother me one bit.

For some time his overall attitude has upset me. I suspected our sentiments were mutal, for we had had conflicts over various ecclesial issues and matters of faith pertaining to 'Traditional' views.

Recently, he upset me very much, and I cannot reasonably be expected to have contact with him again. He hasn't contacted me either. In fact I got very angry with him in a cafe because of it. I was accused of all the old canards: schism, disobedience, pride. He intimated I was misleading my mother and said I was "gambling with my soul". He said I should consider that the promulgation of the  Novus Ordo Missae is the will of God. He believes my views, sentiments and convictions are generally unjustified, and I feel strongly he has questioned my moral character because of them.

A little while before this happened I texted him and said I couldn't feel we could see each each other again because of our differences, and that if we wanted to go forward in the relationship we couldn't talk about religion. About a month or two later we did meet and it was nice. We talked about religion, but nothing 'controversial'. I thought we were fine.

Last time we met he said he had to correct me for the good of my soul, but I pleaded with him not to continue talking about it, because was upsetting. He said he had to, and regarding myself he said "love the sinner, hate the sin". He firmly believes that the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X are in schism, and that the Pope has formally declared them to be in schism. He believes they will remain in schism unless the Pope formally declares them not to be, which he said had not happened. I tried to explain the situation, but badly, because I got very emotional and my mind went blank. I know my reasons in my heart, but I am not a canon lawyer or a theologian, but he said I had to explain myself. One of the things I mentioned was that the Pontifical Ecclesia Dei Commision had said it was permissible for Catholics to attend FSSPX Masses, but he said that didn't matter, it is what the Pope says that matters. He is all for the FSSP, but the nearest FSSP is in Edinburgh, but I live in Glasgow. The Archdiocese of Glasgow is very hostile to the Traditional Mass.

I strongly suspect other people here have had similar experiences with friends and family. What have you found useful in dealing with these experiences?
It's just sad that it had to come down to losing a friendship but it just shows that the divide between neo conservative Catholics is very real and very bitter. If Vatican II and the reforms were really so obviously amazing and in perfect continuity with the Church's past the faithful would not be so utterly divided on things. It can and does destroy friendships and perhaps even marriages. I know the woman I'm currently seeing is deeply prayerful and will attend the traditional Mass with me but she does not really like talking about or comparing the pre and post Vatican II Church and is, like many faithful Novus Ordo Catholics, shocked that the Church could ever teach that there is no salvation outside of her, there really is a such thing as a heretic or a schismatic and that it's not OK to attend non Catholic services. I feel like if I were to discuss things too much even in a rational level headed manner it would cause friction.
Not lost, exactly, but my spouse and I are definitely treated as the crazy relatives/friends in the attic. Everything we either do or not do, if it runs counter to their actions, is judged through our support of "that Latin thing". So, no, no formal break but kept at arm's length as much as possible.
I attended (but did not serve) at a Requiem mass last week, for an old academic who died in relative isolation from her family. It was her express wish to have a priest at my college offer the TLM - the only three people who had any idea what was going on were the priest, the server, and I.

Her relatives gathered around her coffin and finally sat down, chatting and commenting on the apparent "strangeness" throughout. Their eulogies (this was new to me - where I'm from, the laity are not permitted to offer eulogies during a funeral mass) were a mixture of rather embarrassing sentimentalism ("I've slipped into another room"), pathos, and anger. She obviously hasn't been able to draw her family to that same love for the liturgy she (and her late husband) must have had, and none of her children or their children were practicing Catholics (not sure they were Christians really).

So in a way, I think that poor old woman lost her entire family because of her "Traditional" convictions. Quite a sad thing to see.
(04-26-2014, 07:52 PM)loggats Wrote: [ -> ]I attended (but did not serve) at a Requiem mass last week, for an old academic who died in relative isolation from her family. It was her express wish to have a priest at my college offer the TLM - the only three people who had any idea what was going on were the priest, the server, and I.

Her relatives gathered around her coffin and finally sat down, chatting and commenting on the apparent "strangeness" throughout. Their eulogies (this was new to me - where I'm from, the laity are not permitted to offer eulogies during a funeral mass) were a mixture of rather embarrassing sentimentalism ("I've slipped into another room"), pathos, and anger. She obviously hasn't been able to draw her family to that same love for the liturgy she (and her late husband) must have had, and none of her children or their children were practicing Catholics (not sure they were Christians really).

So in a way, I think that poor old woman lost her entire family because of her "Traditional" convictions. Quite a sad thing to see.

Yes, it's such a sad story. Lately our Tridentine Community are complained of "singing in Latin" in a Salesian parish, and was forced to move to another farther away parish.

In that parish, there is a good traditionalist priest, who loves TLM. But sadly when the pastor knows that it will be a TLM, he prohibited it at once.

Thanks be to God it did not happen.

But what's wrong with singing in Latin? Are we not the Roman Catholic Church?
(04-26-2014, 07:15 PM)Miles Immaculatae Wrote: [ -> ]He said I should consider that the promulgation of the  Novus Ordo Missae is the will of God.

Yes, the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae is the will of God, because it will not come out if God dose not agree. But God's will has two sides. If we do good, it will be a optimistic one. If we did something bad, then He will allow something perssimistic happen on us to teach us something about His glory. It's apparent for the Novus Ordo Missae, God's will is the latter.

However, I do agree with your friend regarding SSPX's status with the church. I think they are in schism. Hope this will not hurt you. I think your friend is just out of concern and love for you so that he is trying to persuade you to do the right thing he considered to be. I agree with him that FSSP is right.

Sad to see that after Vantican II the church is so divided instead of unified. Catholic people are divided into three categories: Liberals, Neo-conservatives (they call them orthodox, means following the pope) and traditionalists. We traditionalists are already few, and we are divided into sections as well:

Ultra-traditionalists: like SSPX, sedevacantists. Basically these two groups considered only themselves are right, and outside of them people are neither traditional nor have the truth; They call traditionalists as "indults";

Diocesan and Ecclesia Dei groups: Prefer to worship within the church, and are constantly being persecuted; etc.

Of course, some neo-conservatives also worship in TLMs, but basically they think Vantican II is a problem of interpretation and Novus Ordo mass, when it is reverently said, it is pretty good, and is in the same level as TLM.

I have a friend who is an ex-seminarian of FSSP, but he is a neo-conservative. I don't think we have any problem talking about our Catholic faith. He has been my catechism teacher for some years, and my companion on the way to religious vocation. I can't fully agree with him, but when it reaches a point that I can't agree with him,  we will argue, sometimes in a violent way, or even quarrel, but this will not influence our friendship, because he's my teacher, at any rate I have to respect him.

I also met with a girl who just came back from US for graduate study. She attends TLMs in Christ the King's chapel for years. But she is not traditional-minded at all because she never attended the catechism classes. Sad to see that, and during our conversation I have to carefully avoid those parts, and give her some guidance regarding how to become a traditionalist.

That's what our late Chinese premier said, " Seek the common, and keep the difference." It's not easy, but within such a difficult time we have to do that.

One thing unfortunately happened last night is that, I quarrelled with someone on Phatmass, I doubt if most of them are neo-conservatives. They just take an erroneous notion of papal infallibility after Vantican II, and meant the pope can't be critizied. When I say the pope is persecuting Franciscan of the Immaculate, all those kind of women rushing to condemn me. Because I am "judging the pope". I was startled. My anger flared up, and I had left that forum, forever. It's not a place I should go.

I fully understood your situation. You can try to explain to your friend, but if you can't reach any point with him, may be it's time to cool your friendship for a while. I know how hard it is. May be you can seek new friendship. Because if you go to heaven, your friend can't accompany you. But if you go to hell, your friend might not go with you as well. It's better to seek friendship in heaven, with Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and angels and saints. Also, you can seek friendship with good traditionalists on earth.
(04-26-2014, 11:42 PM)puppy99 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-26-2014, 07:15 PM)Miles Immaculatae Wrote: [ -> ]He said I should consider that the promulgation of the  Novus Ordo Missae is the will of God.

Yes, the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae is the will of God, because it will not come out if God dose not agree. But God's will has two sides. If we do good, it will be a optimistic one. If we did something bad, then He will allow something perssimistic happen on us to teach us something about His glory. It's apparent for the Novus Ordo Missae, God's will is the latter.

Yes, I agree. I suppose it is the will of God in the sense that God permits it. But that is very different from saying God wills it. The same goes with the canonisations. God, I suspect will permit them. I do not believe God is pleased with them, but he respects our free will. His permitting them is a kind of chastisement. My friend believes the Novus Ordo is a good thing, and that God positively wills it. I cannot believe that, I do not believe the Novus Ordo will exist in any form when the crisis is over. 

Like the 'Ecclesia Dei' Catholics you mention, like them, I genuinely would prefer to worship within canonically regular structures. The SSPX's canonical situation is very painful for me.

It would appear my friend was trying to love me, but he doesn't respect me. I also sensed an hatred and judgementalism coming from him. I strongly suspect he resents the fact I am against Medjugorje. Medjugorje does something very strange to people, a kind of spiritual obnoxiousness. I think he is spiritually obnoxious and he thinks I am proud and Pharisaical. There is a state of war between us, and we can never be friends again.

I have heard of Phatmass, but never been on it. Is it like Catholic Answers Forum?

I want friends, but after this incident, except Traditional minded Catholics, I kind of feel I don't want any more Catholic friends ever again. It is not worth bloodshed (okay, that is hyperbolic). Does anyone else feel this way? Being sick of Catholics...
(04-27-2014, 12:01 AM)Miles Immaculatae Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-26-2014, 11:42 PM)puppy99 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-26-2014, 07:15 PM)Miles Immaculatae Wrote: [ -> ]He said I should consider that the promulgation of the  Novus Ordo Missae is the will of God.

Yes, the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae is the will of God, because it will not come out if God dose not agree. But God's will has two sides. If we do good, it will be a optimistic one. If we did something bad, then He will allow something perssimistic happen on us to teach us something about His glory. It's apparent for the Novus Ordo Missae, God's will is the latter.

Yes, I agree. I suppose it is the will of God in the sense that God permits it. But that is very different from saying God wills it. The same goes with the canonisations. God, I suspect will permit them. I do not believe God is pleased with them, but he respects our free will. His permitting them is a kind of chastisement. My friend believes the Novus Ordo is a good thing, and that God positively wills it. I cannot believe that, I do not believe the Novus Ordo will exist in any form when the crisis is over. 

Like the 'Ecclesia Dei' Catholics you mention, like them, I genuinely would prefer to worship within canonically regular structures. The SSPX's canonical situation is very painful for me.

It would appear my friend was trying to love me, but he doesn't respect me. I also sensed an hatred and judgementalism coming from him. I strongly suspect he resents the fact I am against Medjugorje. Medjugorje does something very strange to people, a kind of spiritual obnoxiousness. I think he is spiritually obnoxious and he thinks I am proud and Pharisaical. There is a state of war between us, and we can never be friends again.

I have heard of Phatmass, but never been on it. Is it like Catholic Answers Forum?

I want friends, but after this incident, except Traditional minded Catholics, I kind of feel I don't want any more Catholic friends ever again. It is not worth bloodshed (okay, that is hyperbolic). Does anyone else feel this way? Being sick of Catholics...

I think I am in the same boat as you are. I did really start practicing the faith until about 3 years ago and I came back via the Novus Ordo Mass and a pretty liberal parish. (God uses many ways and things to get back to him). However I always kept my self open to the truth and I think this explains my love and thirst for things like philosophy and things of that nature. It was only about a year and a half ago that I found out about this website (FishEaters) and about the Latin Mass itself. Ever since that moment I have been studying the faith as much as possible.

At the present moment I find myself getting less and less attracted to the Novus Ordo Mass and more attracted to the Latin Mass. I accept the Novus Ordo as a valid Mass and thus I accept that God permits the Mass. However I can't say that it can compare to the Tridentine Mass in both beauty, eloquence, and most definitely in its theological concept. Various of my friends tell me that I can't say that the Novus Ordo is an inferior Mass, because they are both the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. As much as I understand and respect there position and know what they mean, I just can't believe that there is not theological superiority over the Tridentine Mass when you come to study it. When a friend invites me over to a Novus Ordo Mass I don't have problems attending them, so long as they are reverently done. However as reverent as they may be (and there are some) it is still not in the same level as the Traditional Mass.

Whenever I am with my Catholic friends I always have to be truthful and share what little I know and I know that many of the things that I say get me in trouble. Yes this means criticism of the pope, and various other things. However I always make sure that whatever I say is done in the basis of charity and I try to practice prudence. I know various old friends don't feel that comfortable talking to me because some of the things I have said.

(04-27-2014, 12:01 AM)Miles Immaculatae Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-26-2014, 11:42 PM)puppy99 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-26-2014, 07:15 PM)Miles Immaculatae Wrote: [ -> ]He said I should consider that the promulgation of the  Novus Ordo Missae is the will of God.

Yes, the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae is the will of God, because it will not come out if God dose not agree. But God's will has two sides. If we do good, it will be a optimistic one. If we did something bad, then He will allow something perssimistic happen on us to teach us something about His glory. It's apparent for the Novus Ordo Missae, God's will is the latter.

Yes, I agree. I suppose it is the will of God in the sense that God permits it. But that is very different from saying God wills it. The same goes with the canonisations. God, I suspect will permit them. I do not believe God is pleased with them, but he respects our free will. His permitting them is a kind of chastisement. My friend believes the Novus Ordo is a good thing, and that God positively wills it. I cannot believe that, I do not believe the Novus Ordo will exist in any form when the crisis is over. 

Like the 'Ecclesia Dei' Catholics you mention, like them, I genuinely would prefer to worship within canonically regular structures. The SSPX's canonical situation is very painful for me.

It would appear my friend was trying to love me, but he doesn't respect me. I also sensed an hatred and judgementalism coming from him. I strongly suspect he resents the fact I am against Medjugorje. Medjugorje does something very strange to people, a kind of spiritual obnoxiousness. I think he is spiritually obnoxious and he thinks I am proud and Pharisaical. There is a state of war between us, and we can never be friends again.

I have heard of Phatmass, but never been on it. Is it like Catholic Answers Forum?

I want friends, but after this incident, except Traditional minded Catholics, I kind of feel I don't want any more Catholic friends ever again. It is not worth bloodshed (okay, that is hyperbolic). Does anyone else feel this way? Being sick of Catholics...

I see. I agree all your opinions.

Glad to see that you are not comfortable with SSPX, but I know based on your situation, you have nowhere to go.

I have to say, to become a traditional Catholic, you indeed have many more crosses to carry. Because you have found the truth. The devils will not be glad to see it, and will attack you day and night, and the political environment within the church will not make you happy. You will have limited sincere Catholic friends.

Am I ever sick of Catholics? Yes I did. As what I did yesterday on Phatmass. And in my country the biggest problem is political conflicts between official church and underground church, the Catholics are fighting with each other without end. I am tired of the war long time ago. Frankly sometimes I am not comfortable while associating with my brethren at the other side. We are accused as self-righteous extremers who claim the other party to be schismatics and who consider only themselves could be saved.

But what I can do is to accuse myself, for lack in charity towards my brothers and sisters, for being proud, self-righteous and self-centered. If they have found the church's tradition or the truth church, they will be much much better than me. I am but a sinner who are unworthy of so much gratuitous grace from God.

It' useless to argue. And it would hard to convert others, what you can do is to stick to the truth and pray. As our Lord has said,  deny yourself, carry the cross and follow Him.
There is no doubt that the traditional Latin Mass is theologically richer, deeper and speaks with more clarity about just exactly what is taking place, but I have to agree that if you accept the Mass of Paul VI as a valid Mass and accept along with Pope Benedict XVI that it is simply just the "ordinary form" of the one Roman Rite it is wrong to say that it is inferior, at least as far as grace goes. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the Mass of Paul VI is, in the words of Joseph Ratzinger "a banal on the spot product" and that it is ambiguous in what it says, bland, unorganic, has a ridiculous amount of options and even in the original Latin form is deeply impoverished in it's expression but yet it IS the Mass and to say otherwise makes no sense at all if you accept the authority of Paul VI.  It's hard sometimes because the new rite is so impoverished and there are so many abuses and outrages (the Mass propers are almost never used, women and girls in the sanctuary,laity giving out Communion, priest facing the people, readings done not from the Epistle and Gospel side of the altar by a priest or deacon but read at a podium by (mostly) women and girls, Communion in the hand while standing, hand shaking, applause etc) but again, if we accept the authority of the post conciliar hierarchy we must accept that this rite no matter how trite and impoverished IS the Mass. This raises questions though, such as, is all that REALLY matters the bare bones validity of the rite, as if the reverence behind the actions, the vestments and yes, the theology are simply secondary matters? This is all a cause of fighting between the Mark Shea types and many trads and there are almost as many ways of dealing with these things as there are Catholics.
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