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I was reading Fr. Z's blog this morning and came upon this stunning quote from Cardinal Kasper:

Quote:“I’ve spoken to the pope himself about this, and he said he believes that 50 percent of marriages are not valid.”

And this had me thinking about priests (besides the implications for those marriages!). Even if the number is far lower, it means that there are many invalid marriages out there. If marriages can not be valid, then why not the same for ordinations? And if there are people out there acting as priests who were not validly ordained, then what does this mean about celebrations of Mass? Are there a good number out there that are totally invalid because the priest isn't really ordained? The spiritual ramifications of this on parishes without a validly ordained priest must be huge. They don't have the Real Presence!

Is this possible? And if it is, is there anything that can be done?
(05-08-2014, 03:50 PM)phattonez Wrote: [ -> ]I was reading Fr. Z's blog this morning and came upon this stunning quote from Cardinal Kasper:

Quote:“I’ve spoken to the pope himself about this, and he said he believes that 50 percent of marriages are not valid.”

And this had me thinking about priests (besides the implications for those marriages!). Even if the number is far lower, it means that there are many invalid marriages out there. If marriages can not be valid, then why not the same for ordinations? And if there are people out there acting as priests who were not validly ordained, then what does this mean about celebrations of Mass? Are there a good number out there that are totally invalid because the priest isn't really ordained? The spiritual ramifications of this on parishes without a validly ordained priest must be huge. They don't have the Real Presence!

Is this possible? And if it is, is there anything that can be done?

maybe the "marriages" are invalid because the people werent married in a church by a priest and not because the rite of marriage was performed incorrectly.

look at all the annulments, those would count as invalid marriages as well.
going from memory here.

For the Consecration, you must have 3 things.   Matter, Form, and Intention.

If you, as the Catholic sitting in the pew, have reason to think and believe that all 3 are present, then it is a valid consecration for you, even if the priest, in your example, is not a valid priest.

I forget where I learned this, it's been a long time since I took theology courses.

perhaps someone esle can cite where this doctrine comes from.

(05-08-2014, 04:07 PM)Zea mays Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-08-2014, 03:50 PM)phattonez Wrote: [ -> ]I was reading Fr. Z's blog this morning and came upon this stunning quote from Cardinal Kasper:

Quote:“I’ve spoken to the pope himself about this, and he said he believes that 50 percent of marriages are not valid.”

And this had me thinking about priests (besides the implications for those marriages!). Even if the number is far lower, it means that there are many invalid marriages out there. If marriages can not be valid, then why not the same for ordinations? And if there are people out there acting as priests who were not validly ordained, then what does this mean about celebrations of Mass? Are there a good number out there that are totally invalid because the priest isn't really ordained? The spiritual ramifications of this on parishes without a validly ordained priest must be huge. They don't have the Real Presence!

Is this possible? And if it is, is there anything that can be done?

maybe the "marriages" are invalid because the people werent married in a church by a priest and not because the rite of marriage was performed incorrectly.

look at all the annulments, those would count as invalid marriages as well.

Annulments are declarations by the Church that no marriage ever happened, not that the marriage was invalid.  A very important distinction.
but until its found that a marriage never happened then we live in an invalid marriage.

6 of one a half dozen of another.

(05-08-2014, 04:07 PM)Jaegermeister Wrote: [ -> ]going from memory here.

For the Consecration, you must have 3 things.   Matter, Form, and Intention.

If you, as the Catholic sitting in the pew, have reason to think and believe that all 3 are present, then it is a valid consecration for you, even if the priest, in your example, is not a valid priest.

I forget where I learned this, it's been a long time since I took theology courses.

perhaps someone esle can cite where this doctrine comes from.

I'm pretty sure this is not accurate. 

Consecration either happens, or it doesn't.  There is no 'valid consecration for you' involved.  Consecration is not a subjective thing, it objectively happens or it doesn't.  If a priest is not a priest than it is not possible for consecration to occur.

You could, in theory, be granted graces based on your improper assumption that the consecration is valid.  And you would not be sinning by receiving, since you didn't know.  It may even count as your requirement to receive Eucharist at least once per year, since you weren't intentionally avoiding it.

Michael
(05-08-2014, 04:07 PM)Jaegermeister Wrote: [ -> ]going from memory here.

For the Consecration, you must have 3 things.   Matter, Form, and Intention.

If you, as the Catholic sitting in the pew, have reason to think and believe that all 3 are present, then it is a valid consecration for you, even if the priest, in your example, is not a valid priest.

I forget where I learned this, it's been a long time since I took theology courses.

perhaps someone esle can cite where this doctrine comes from.
No - that would be the speculative theology of Schillebeckx.

The priest needs to be ordained, and have valid matter, form and intent.
when i have time, i'll look it up.

but, in answer to both of you, taking your points to the logical conclusion, i now have to go into the back of the church, make sure that the priest actually poured wine, from a wine bottle, check it's alcohol content, then make sure it's water, not vodka.  Then I need to check that the host is actually unleavened bread, and not a cracker or soy based product.  The words, I can hear those, all set there.  But then I also have to check the priest's credentials out.  And that's asking a lot, going back two thousand years through records kept all over the place.  Then, I need to give the priest the 3rd degree to make sure his intention is pure.

Nope, i stand by my memory.  If you think it's valid, it is.  Informed conscience, and all that.

Also, if memory serves, many prisoners in Russian gulags during and prior to WW2 smuggled in consecrated hosts.  Later it turned out that lots of them weren't consecrated.  If the prisoner receiving the host thought it was, he received grace.

God can do all things, and in your informed conscience, if you think you're receiving a valid sacrament, then you are.  The key term often left off of this point is INFORMED.
It's called trust - We trust our priests aren't hoodwinking us, and that they are validly consecrating valid matter.

Your version is opinion.

It;s the Eucharist if you think it is.
(05-08-2014, 04:09 PM)Jaegermeister Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-08-2014, 04:07 PM)Zea mays Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-08-2014, 03:50 PM)phattonez Wrote: [ -> ]I was reading Fr. Z's blog this morning and came upon this stunning quote from Cardinal Kasper:

Quote:“I’ve spoken to the pope himself about this, and he said he believes that 50 percent of marriages are not valid.”

And this had me thinking about priests (besides the implications for those marriages!). Even if the number is far lower, it means that there are many invalid marriages out there. If marriages can not be valid, then why not the same for ordinations? And if there are people out there acting as priests who were not validly ordained, then what does this mean about celebrations of Mass? Are there a good number out there that are totally invalid because the priest isn't really ordained? The spiritual ramifications of this on parishes without a validly ordained priest must be huge. They don't have the Real Presence!

Is this possible? And if it is, is there anything that can be done?

maybe the "marriages" are invalid because the people werent married in a church by a priest and not because the rite of marriage was performed incorrectly.

look at all the annulments, those would count as invalid marriages as well.

Annulments are declarations by the Church that no marriage ever happened, not that the marriage was invalid.  A very important distinction.

I interpret them to mean the same thing. In the context of the quote, what else could it mean?

If the Church admits that marriages could, in fact, be invalid (vs. simply never occurring), it would open up the floodgate. My head hurts just thinking about the implications, as outlined by phattonez.
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