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(08-02-2014, 09:41 AM)Heorot Wrote: [ -> ]Friends,

As the Novus Ordo heresy of relativism, obscurantism, and modernism spreads like wildfire in the Church, I am beginning to wonder how faithful Catholics are supposed to proclaim the Gospel to anyone. If we do, the hierarchy will contradict us.

If we try to say to anyone that Christ is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life - without which there is no everlasting life for man - we will be in continuity with the Catholic Past, but not with the Catholic Present.

If we try to become missionaries and go to far away deserts and jungles, saying Christ is the center of the Universe and the Son of the One and only God, who has forgiven all our sins by His glorious love for us, we will be speaking the immemorial Truth of the Gospel, but not the "truth" of the modern Church.

Everywhere I go, deacons, priests, and bishops preach nothing but tolerance, love, equality, community, and kindness. These are good things, but they are incomplete. There's nothing like the sermons of the Acts of the Apostles anymore. Even the local Franciscans - the most orthodox preachers around here - never talk about sin, redemption, or the atonement. Christ is only mentioned in-so-far as He is part of the Gospel story.

This is bothering me very deeply. I do not feel like it would be right to move my own parents toward Catholicism, because I know that even if they deigned to attend Mass, they would be fed syrupy relativist nothingness. If they joined us and become faithful Catholics, they would receive gall and vinegar, not fresh water. I cannot tell them - or anyone - that Catholicism has the fullness of Truth, because the Church Herself doesn't seem to teach or believe it anymore. I would be saying what is True, but everyone else would be for lying.

How do we cope with this? What do we do?

In the past I  told few of my friends who were becoming Catholic and traditionalist, "Come on in the water stinks!"

I felt the same frustration you did. I mean, we can hold up all of the traditions of the saints, but the liberals have a canonized saint now too. And more on the way.
This post I just made on CAF encapsulates my feelings better:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=12224248

Let's see how long it takes for the Moderators to take it down.
There are problems in Orthodoxy that can't be glossed over, but at least they have a fullness and a richness and a continuity of things that Rome just doesn't. Reading the Optina Elders books again, and Father Seraphim Rose, are heartwarming and encouraging. Not to mention lately I've been praying as much of the Eastern Office as I'm able without all the service books. I missed that full body prayer, the metanias, the frequent crossing, the bows, the theological richness and exuberance of the prayers, not to mention a hearty dose of the psalter. its also nice to see that each day is chock full of saints to commemorate, both East and West.

Yes this is definitely one of the most difficult times to be Christian I suppose, especially difficult to be a Roman Catholic. There is so much that is laudable about the various traditions of Rome but I struggle to see the True Church in her these days. I have to be honest with myself.
Thank God for FIsheaters, where we have a place to be open and honest, not worrying that a Novus Ordo Equality Squad will brow-beat us for loving absolute Truth and desiring zeal for Christ alone. This is a haven for lost ships in an age of total degeneracy.
It was a heartfelt post that I only got to read after closing the shameless plug for donations that popped up! Ha! I thought what you wrote was honest and good and if that's the kind of thing CAF would consider taking down than they are engaging in the protection of a cult like atmosphere. What you said is true, modern Catholicism had, at least in practice, in the words of Popes,prelates and priests, abandoned its truth claims. How are we supposed to take that seriously?
(08-02-2014, 12:37 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]It was a heartfelt post that I only got to read after closing the shameless plug for donations that popped up! Ha! I thought what you wrote was honest and good and if that's the kind of thing CAF would consider taking down than they are engaging in the protection of a cult like atmosphere. What you said is true, modern Catholicism had, at least in practice, in the words of Popes,prelates and priests, abandoned its truth claims. How are we supposed to take that seriously?

Yeah, I thought what Heorot said there was very restrained and charitable. If they take it down, they'll prove their total devotion to modernity at the expense of the faith.
With all due respect, I think you guys need to calm down. The Church is the bride of Christ and He will not abandon her. The barque of Peter will not sink, and to say so is heresy and scandalous.
And I totally agree with liebestat: if its hard to live in the Church today its because of sins (or you guys think that pre-VII Church was made up of saints? Ha!). When God punished Israel for its sins no faithful Israelite would think of moving to another nation.
Besides, I wonder if this problems you mention are not localized. I don't have that experience of being utterly unable to find orthodox parishes (and of course, at least the people who go to these parishes also don't have this experience).

As for Eastern Orthodoxy, I've heard from many Easterners (including priests) that to move to Eastern Orthodoxy thinking one might find things in a better state is an illusion and no good reason to move (in other words, either they were right and Easterners have their share of problems and sins or they have their versions of our indifferentism – in which case one returns to the first option).
For instance, taking a random example, few months ago some Greek Orthodox man (Gregory Pappas) who was married to some other man was, after years of receiving communion in his parish, denied communion (with a note in advance, of course). Then he made a bit of a scene on the internet and received many invitations (even from bishops!) to receive communion in some other parish.
You guys really think Eastern Orthodoxy will hold up better to the lures of Western hedonism? Not to speak of its passiveness towards the Byzantines and communists.

Why don't we just admit we live in hard times (and, actually, I don't think this is the worst time) and remain faithful, without despairing?
Just a note: the thread was closed by a moderator because the "question was answered". Interestingly I never got a chance to post in my thread after the first post I made, and I never asked this moderator to close the thread. My question wasn't really answered, but at least a few people tried. The mods probably get nervous when a thread like that comes up. I can't blame them.

(08-02-2014, 01:53 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]With all due respect, I think you guys need to calm down. The Church is the bride of Christ and He will not abandon her. The barque of Peter will not sink, and to say so is heresy and scandalous.
And I totally agree with liebestat: if its hard to live in the Church today its because of sins (or you guys think that pre-VII Church was made up of saints? Ha!). When God punished Israel for its sins no faithful Israelite would think of moving to another nation.
Besides, I wonder if this problems you mention are not localized. I don't have that experience of being utterly unable to find orthodox parishes (and of course, at least the people who go to these parishes also don't have this experience).

Thank you for your well-measured reply, Renatus Frater.

Firstly, I did not say that I think the Church has fallen or sunk. My concern is with the move toward relativism by individual bishops, priests, and other members of the hierarchy. I am worried that I might preach the Gospel to someone and invite them to Mass, and then they'd hear many things contrary to Tradition. It's not an impossibility, in this day and age. Scandal is easy to come by in this atmosphere.

Secondly, it is logical that the pre-Vatican II Church led to the post-Vatican II Church. I believe the seeds of relativism and false ecumenism were creeping in by the time Pius X died. After WWI, it's as if everyone kind of gave up "sledgehammer Christianity" and wanted to talk. I think it was like the Trade/Labour Union movement: in its early days, a charitable and necessary thing; in latter days, superfluous and dangerous. God punished Israel for its sins by destroying human lives, crops, animals, and even allowing the Scriptures to be lost for a while. Even at the bleakest hour, 7000 remained in Israel who would not bow to the idols. There was no Magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit back then, however! Now we have to rely on a set of cardinals and bishops who have said very questionable and ridiculous things in the past 40 years. It's depressing and demoralizing when the Faith seems to be watered-down in every sermon, and even the Holy Father talks of nothing but social justice and labour equality. In our secularized atmosphere, it is not good.

Thirdly, the fact that there's even one unorthodox parish - let alone unorthodox dioceses! - left uncorrected by Rome or the Sacred College makes me worry about the Whole, not just the Part(s).

Sorry, but I am angry about my experience, and I am venting some of it in one of the few places where people listen and sympathize without calling me a heretic.

Quote:Why don't we just admit we live in hard times (and, actually, I don't think this is the worst time) and remain faithful, without despairing?

These definitely are hard times... it's just so endlessly scandalous that even the Magisterium itself seems to be rocking the boat - and just when we're over the most treacherous, most shark-filled waters of all. Usquequo, Domine?
My own journey towards Orthodoxy has not been hasty or simply a knee jerk reaction to the latest buffoonery of Cardinal Dolan or Pope Francis, its been a long tortuous path of prayer, doubts, reading, reflecting, mulling it over with others and being in a state of mental agony. I'm very much aware of the various issues in the Orthodox Church be the calender, the creeping protestantism and modernism in some circles, the renovationist smugness of parisian orthodox scholars (who have a HUGE influence on Orthodoxy in the West), the ethnic and nationalist ghetto mentality and the various bizarre and petty squabbles over how to receive converts even within the same jurisdiction and yet this does not phase me in the same way as the near complete and total about face of the Roman Catholic Church in the last  half century.
(08-02-2014, 03:35 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]My own journey towards Orthodoxy has not been hasty or simply a knee jerk reaction to the latest buffoonery of Cardinal Dolan or Pope Francis, its been a long tortuous path of prayer, doubts, reading, reflecting, mulling it over with others and being in a state of mental agony. I'm very much aware of the various issues in the Orthodox Church be the calender, the creeping protestantism and modernism in some circles, the renovationist smugness of parisian orthodox scholars (who have a HUGE influence on Orthodoxy in the West), the ethnic and nationalist ghetto mentality and the various bizarre and petty squabbles over how to receive converts even within the same jurisdiction and yet this does not phase me in the same way as the near complete and total about face of the Roman Catholic Church in the last  half century.

What do you think of Jesus Christ?
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