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Shocked

And the movement towards a one world church continues...

Quote:Vatican and Lutherans Announce Common Liturgical Material for 2017

(LWI) – Rev. Martin Junge, General Secretary of The Lutheran World Federation (LWF) says relations between the Lutheran and Catholic churches have reached an epoch-making turning-point.

Speaking during a panel discussion, held 18 December, in the Lutheran church in Rome, Junge emphasized that the relationship between Lutherans and Catholics was being transformed “from conflict to communion.” Precisely in a world “in which religion and faith are regularly portrayed and perceived as trouble makers,” he said it was a phenomenal testimony that the Lutheran and Roman Catholic churches continued to move “towards a profound communion that frees us to serve God and the world.”

Alongside Junge on the panel were, the president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) Kurt Cardinal Koch, the Catholica representative of the United Evangelical Lutheran Church of Germany Bishop Karl-Hinrich Manzke, and the chairperson of the Ecumenism Commission of the German Episcopal Conference Bishop Gerhard Feige.

Junge and Koch took the opportunity to announce plans for a common liturgical guide in connection with the 500th anniversary of the Reformation in 2017, of which publication is scheduled for 2015. Looking towards 2017, the Lutheran - Roman Catholic material is intended to enable churches all over the world to review the 500 years of Reformation. The guide will follow on from the dialogue document From Conflict to Communion published by both partners in 2013, and transpose it into liturgical acts. The material will reflect the structure of this document with its triple form of penitence for the wounds mutually inflicted; joy at the insights and dimensions of the Reformation; and hope for unity.

http://www.lutheranworld.org/news/epoch-...-communion
The Novus Ordo is already too much like a Lutheran service, and this can only serve to promote indifferentism toward theology and doctrine.
(01-04-2015, 01:13 AM)iona_scribe Wrote: [ -> ]The Novus Ordo is already too much like a Lutheran service, and this can only serve to promote indifferentism toward theology and doctrine.

Funny, I know Lutherans who thought their services more Catholic than some Novus Ordo Masses.

One Missouri Synod Lutheran once told me that his group "kept the older Liturgy" when we Catholics updated our at Vatican II. Of course, he had no idea what he was talking about, but wasn't too far off ...
Wow. Pope Francis is not being a very helpful Pontiff. This is nonsense. How can we even pray for the outcomes of such an ill-conceived, heretical conference? It's just bad.

Funny how the Lutheran frames all this. He says that we must band together in radical ways because the World views religion as divisive. I don't think he remembers the words of our Lord in Matthew 10:35. Not only does Jesus predict that father will be against son and son will be against father, but He says that He came specifically for that purpose! Again, the Lutheran spokesman says that we must be "freed" to serve God and the World. His words assume that Christian freedom does not result from opposition to heresy and wrongdoing. We must be strong.

Hopefully the Church does go too far...
I don't know, this is no worse than the " Week of Prayer For Christian Unity" that  is promoted by the Vatican every year with its exclusively ecumenical focus and ambiguous verbiage. All the previous pamphlets for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity aree up on the Vatican website.  It went from a week of acknowledging that Rome is the true Church followed by special prayers for those outside her to return to her fold to a Vatican/World Council of Churches sponsored ecumenical affair celebrating diversity.

In light of all this, coming up with some sort of joint liturgical guide with Lutherans is just par for the course.
(01-04-2015, 01:18 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-04-2015, 01:13 AM)iona_scribe Wrote: [ -> ]The Novus Ordo is already too much like a Lutheran service, and this can only serve to promote indifferentism toward theology and doctrine.

Funny, I know Lutherans who thought their services more Catholic than some Novus Ordo Masses.

One Missouri Synod Lutheran once told me that his group "kept the older Liturgy" when we Catholics updated our at Vatican II. Of course, he had no idea what he was talking about, but wasn't too far off ...

Before I left the ELCA-church,  they were still on their knees at the communion rail receiving communion from the pastor and not a "Eucharistic Minister"

That does not mean there are not bad, liberal, lets all hold hands and sing kum-by-yah Lutheran places of worship....trust me I've seen the horror in the ELCA, as well as the Roman Catholic Church.
I don't know why there's so much talk in such advance. Two years is not a long time, all right, but its not next month either. And even if the pope has to have his calendar planned in two years in advance, why people keep bringing that up?
It looks like some folks take absolute pleasure in scandalizing Catholics (God of surprises much?).
I don't think this is just a complain from someone tempted at scandal by these, frankly, scandalous acts. I wonder if all these talks are not already part of the plan, already to shape our view of the lutherans, to rethink, etc.

Also, what does liturgical acts mean, especially considering lutherans are involved? Are they talking of a shared Eucharist or something along the lines of the event pope Francis recently had with Eastern Orthodoxs?
If its a shared Mass I think someone should just throw the bishops and cardinals responsible for it in some Vatican dungeon.

We should pray real hard for some divine intervention. If something drastic happens and the pope is not deposed, well, then we are in grave danger (one might speculate if the Church didn't defect). But, let's not be harsh and discount the fire and brimstone solution too quickly.
(01-04-2015, 01:45 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know why there's so much talk in such advance. Two years is not a long time, all right, but its not next month either. And even if the pope has to have his calendar planned in two years in advance, why people keep bringing that up?
It looks like some folks take absolute pleasure in scandalizing Catholics (God of surprises much?).
I don't think this is just a complain from someone tempted at scandal by these, frankly, scandalous acts. I wonder if all these talks are not already part of the plan, already to shape our view of the lutherans, to rethink, etc.

Also, what does liturgical acts mean, especially considering lutherans are involved? Are they talking of a shared Eucharist or something along the lines of the event pope Francis recently had with Eastern Orthodoxs?
If its a shared Mass I think someone should just throw the bishops and cardinals responsible for it in some Vatican dungeon.

We should pray real hard for some divine intervention. If something drastic happens and the pope is not deposed, well, then we are in grave danger (one might speculate if the Church didn't defect). But, let's not be harsh and discount the fire and brimstone solution too quickly.

We should remember that in the past, there were popes who gave a nod to the Arian heresy. We need to pray, but not lose hope. Pray and fast, but if Israel decides to completely go off the beaten path as she had in the past.

We must not lose our faith. The barque of St Peter still sails on to Salvation, even if the vicar and all the princes are over-board.
(01-04-2015, 02:14 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-04-2015, 01:45 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know why there's so much talk in such advance. Two years is not a long time, all right, but its not next month either. And even if the pope has to have his calendar planned in two years in advance, why people keep bringing that up?
It looks like some folks take absolute pleasure in scandalizing Catholics (God of surprises much?).
I don't think this is just a complain from someone tempted at scandal by these, frankly, scandalous acts. I wonder if all these talks are not already part of the plan, already to shape our view of the lutherans, to rethink, etc.

Also, what does liturgical acts mean, especially considering lutherans are involved? Are they talking of a shared Eucharist or something along the lines of the event pope Francis recently had with Eastern Orthodoxs?
If its a shared Mass I think someone should just throw the bishops and cardinals responsible for it in some Vatican dungeon.

We should pray real hard for some divine intervention. If something drastic happens and the pope is not deposed, well, then we are in grave danger (one might speculate if the Church didn't defect). But, let's not be harsh and discount the fire and brimstone solution too quickly.

We should remember that in the past, there were popes who gave a nod to the Arian heresy. We need to pray, but not lose hope. Pray and fast, but if Israel decides to completely go off the beaten path as she had in the past.

We must not lose our faith. The barque of St Peter still sails on to Salvation, even if the vicar and all the princes are over-board.

But then what is the point if the popes and bishops simply cannot be trusted as a whole? Is it merely to pass on apostolic succession over time in order to ensure true sacraments and the Real Presence? I'm beginning to think this is the ONLY reason for the pope and bishops, so that even when Peter and his successors waver and corrupt the faith of millions our Lord is still present on our altars. That's about it. I have ZERO faith in the popes and bishops to do anything more than this. Maybe that's all we should readonably expect anyway....
(01-04-2015, 04:42 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]But then what is the point if the popes and bishops simply cannot be trusted as a whole? Is it merely to pass on apostolic succession over time in order to ensure true sacraments and the Real Presence? I'm beginning to think this is the ONLY reason for the pope and bishops, so that even when Peter and his successors waver and corrupt the faith of millions our Lord is still present on our altars. That's about it. I have ZERO faith in the popes and bishops to do anything more than this. Maybe that's all we should readonably expect anyway....

So does that mean that Pope Benedict XVI could not have been trusted, and that every bishop is corrupt and a heretic....even His Eminence Cardinal Burke?

We must not rush to generalize and cast every bishop in a negative light, because the handful of bad ones receive all the press and attention.

What I said was simply a hypothetical that the Church will never be destroyed, don't assume that I meant to say every bishop is a heretic.
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