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Full Version: Fr Robert Barron takes a trad turn
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In this latest video, Fr Robert Barron argues that in the wake of Vatican II there developed a culture of accepting spiritual mediocrity, and that Catholics should return to pressing hard for spiritual excellence instead.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv8xz62aJa4][/url]
Good for him. Now if he'd only acknowledge "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus."
(04-17-2015, 12:58 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]Good for him. Now if he'd only acknowledge "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus."

I haven't seen anything that indicates that he rejects this dogma. What he has asked questions about is whether there are any souls in Hell at all, which is sort of heterodox position (he never takes a firm stance, but its clear he entertains this idea).
If you don't believe there are any souls in hell (or at least very few), then doesn't that mean that you accept that people can be saved who are outside of the Church? Unless he is to mean that each and every person accepts the Church upon their death... even the most hardened sinners.
(04-17-2015, 08:41 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]If you don't believe there are any souls in hell (or at least very few), then doesn't that mean that you accept that people can be saved who are outside of the Church? Unless he is to mean that each and every person accepts the Church upon their death... even the most hardened sinners.

Yes, because it is in fact possible for a soul member of the Church, to still merit salvation through the Church. There's no reason to lose hope for the salvation of the SSPX especially, or the Eastern Orthodox in particular, and the protestants in general. This has been taught even before the Second Vatican Council. This does not mean that you can just play loose with schismatics and heretics. It depends on their culpability regarding their ignorance of knowing whether the Church is the true Church.

Fr. Garrigou Lagrange the great neo-scholastic commentator indicated as plausible that more than half of all adult Catholics would be saved in the end, and that there would be a large number of protestants among the saved (though whether this was more than half or less than half he didn't say), reading him on the question I get the impression of people less and less connected to the Church being in greater and greater danger of eternal damnation.
(04-17-2015, 08:58 PM)Leonhard Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2015, 08:41 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]If you don't believe there are any souls in hell (or at least very few), then doesn't that mean that you accept that people can be saved who are outside of the Church? Unless he is to mean that each and every person accepts the Church upon their death... even the most hardened sinners.

Yes, because it is in fact possible for a soul member of the Church, to still merit salvation through the Church. There's no reason to lose hope for the salvation of the SSPX especially, or the Eastern Orthodox in particular, and the protestants in general. This has been taught even before the Second Vatican Council. This does not mean that you can just play loose with schismatics and heretics. It depends on their culpability regarding their ignorance of knowing whether the Church is the true Church.

Fr. Garrigou Lagrange the great neo-scholastic commentator indicated as plausible that more than half of all adult Catholics would be saved in the end, and that there would be a large number of protestants among the saved (though whether this was more than half or less than half he didn't say), reading him on the question I get the impression of people less and less connected to the Church being in greater and greater danger of eternal damnation.
Obviously a proponent of the false notion that the SSPX are "outside the church" and "schismatics". I think it is shameful to lump them in with Protestants when the SSPX certainly believe the Catholic Church to be the one true Church of Christ.
Quote:Obviously a proponent of the false notion that the SSPX are "outside the church" and "schismatics". I think it is shameful to lump them in with Protestants when the SSPX certainly believe the Catholic Church to be the one true Church of Christ.

I actually put them as more faithful to The Church than the Eastern Orthodox, whom I put in a closer circle than the protestants. This is also going to offend some on this forum.

The SSPX are not formally in schism any longer, but there's no doubt that there's a strong schismatic tendency among them. We have one group in my country, who manage to have a single mass every year. They actively encourage people to not participate in either, masses said by diocesan or FSSP/ICK priests who say a traditional form mass, and of course actively encourage people to not participate in the New Form Mass (on paper they say its a valid mass, but in practicality, they affirm that all who participate commit sin). There's little doubt that they consider themselves pretty much to be, if not the salvation of The Church, then at least to be the remnant.

Nothing of this has any grounding in reality.

That being said I've repeated often that you couldn't get a cigarette paper between what they believe and what Catholics in general believe. They have the same questions about the VII that we have, they try to make sense of the new situation in the Church in light of tradition, like we do. Its a question of trust.

Granted some of the SSPX are waking up the awkward reality that its been almost an entire generation of theirs now, who have grown up not in an unambiguously good standing with the Vatican, which is a very bad situation. Personally I want them home before they split even further apart than they have, we need them back in The Church where they can do good work.

So far only one of their religious orders chose to come back to Rome: The Transalpine Redemptorists, and they were treated like pariahs for it and denied donations given to them by old ladies who had testamented their possessions to them on death. "We didn't expect that leaving the ghetto, the rocks would come flying from behind." - Fr. Michael Mary.

I sympathise with them and I want them home. Why? Because aside from hyperbole I think they agree with us, this bickering is useless, and there are bigger problems out there we can only deal with together.
We're not just talking Christians though... What Baron's idea implies is that even atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. would fall in the same boat.
At least he is recognizing that spiritual mediocrity is a bad thing. We all know that one must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, but there is no way of knowing what happens between an individual soul and God in those final moments between the end of life here and the opening up of eternity. We do not know who is or is not in hell nor how many are there, and while I believe the Universal Salvation has been condemned we still ought to pray that hell is not full. Why should we wish hell on anyone? We shouldn't imagine that the majority of men are damned. I certainly hope that they are not. If anything we ought to pray more fervently that many souls-- especially those on their deathbeds-- might be accepting of those graces to turn to Jesus Christ and be saved.

As far as the Orthodox Churches go, there's no doubt in my mind that they have saints and there is much holiness amongst them, and that includes the Copts, Assyrians--- the Oriental Orthodox etc.
This is good to see.  We've watched his Catholicism series in our young professionals church group.  Very interesting to see a traditional bent from him.
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