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I applaud Justice Scalia for standing up for traditional marriage.  We need more justices like him!
I'm sure none of the "Catholic" justices who will inevitably rule in favor of sodomy rights will face any ecclesiastical censure.
(05-03-2015, 03:40 PM)Ave Castitatis Lilium Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure none of the "Catholic" justices who will inevitably rule in favor of sodomy rights will face any ecclesiastical censure.

There might be a few tepid whimpers from individual bishops but that's about it. The usual suspects will speak up a little, perhaps Charles Chaput  or someone like him, but other than that it'll be business as usual, more outrage over immigration reform and global warming and exhortations to get out and vote in next years election than anything else.

In times like these it helps to remember Father Hardons prediction that things will get so disorienting and tough in the 21st century that only heroic Catholics will be able to survive with their faith intact, and I'm convinced he meant members of the hierarchy as well.

The way I see it gay marriage as the law of the land is a done deal, it's utterly inevitable. Just what it means for priests and for lay Catholics is anyone's guess. I predict it'll start with petty harassment, you know, zoning issues ( you can't build a new church there), code violations ( this church has asbestos,it's on or near a sinkhole etc.), anything to make it harder for Catholics to assemble or stay visible. The parishes that go along to get along will be the majority, and they will be left alone, but the ones that are vocal and rebel will be pursued and harassed.

There will be next to zero help from an apostate hierarchy, either locally or in a Rome so it'll be up to like minded Christians to band together under whatever leaders they can find that can get them the sacraments be they the rare mainstream Catholic bishop, Orthodox,SSPX or sedevacantist/ independent. Paradoxically this near total dissolution of official Christianity having any legal status or standing in the culture will do more to bring Christians of various groups together than all the academic round table discussions at ecumenical gatherings have done for the last 60 years!

Lastly, most of us will have to have a strong interior life, sometimes without the sacraments for long periods of time.  If the gay lobby and the militant secularists behind them get this gay marriage thing legalized you can bet it's going to eventually be hard to find a Church or at least a church that hasn't compromised.
(05-03-2015, 06:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 03:40 PM)Ave Castitatis Lilium Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure none of the "Catholic" justices who will inevitably rule in favor of sodomy rights will face any ecclesiastical censure.

There might be a few tepid whimpers from individual bishops but that's about it. The usual suspects will speak up a little, perhaps Charles Chaput  or someone like him, but other than that it'll be business as usual, more outrage over immigration reform and global warming and exhortations to get out and vote in next years election than anything else.

In times like these it helps to remember Father Hardons prediction that things will get so disorienting and tough in the 21st century that only heroic Catholics will be able to survive with their faith intact, and I'm convinced he meant members of the hierarchy as well.

The way I see it gay marriage as the law of the land is a done deal, it's utterly inevitable. Just what it means for priests and for lay Catholics is anyone's guess. I predict it'll start with petty harassment, you know, zoning issues ( you can't build a new church there), code violations ( this church has asbestos,it's on or near a sinkhole etc.), anything to make it harder for Catholics to assemble or stay visible. The parishes that go along to get along will be the majority, and they will be left alone, but the ones that are vocal and rebel will be pursued and harassed.

There will be next to zero help from an apostate hierarchy, either locally or in a Rome so it'll be up to like minded Christians to band together under whatever leaders they can find that can get them the sacraments be they the rare mainstream Catholic bishop, Orthodox,SSPX or sedevacantist/ independent. Paradoxically this near total dissolution of official Christianity having any legal status or standing in the culture will do more to bring Christians of various groups together than all the academic round table discussions at ecumenical gatherings have done for the last 60 years!

Lastly, most of us will have to have a strong interior life, sometimes without the sacraments for long periods of time.  If the gay lobby and the militant secularists behind them get this gay marriage thing legalized you can bet it's going to eventually be hard to find a Church or at least a church that hasn't compromised.

To be quite frank, reading the news today (about the enthusiastic canonization process of an unrepentant heretic, and pope Francis' praise of his works, and pope Francis, who does not kneel at consecration or Eucharistic adoration saying we should kneel before the poor) I'm utterly convinced the Church has this coming. If ISIS invades Rome and starts beheading Cardinals, then I'm not sure I would be so sad.
God have mercy, especially on me, a sinner. I just wanted the Church to be firm. God help us, seriously.

(05-03-2015, 06:25 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 06:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 03:40 PM)Ave Castitatis Lilium Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure none of the "Catholic" justices who will inevitably rule in favor of sodomy rights will face any ecclesiastical censure.

There might be a few tepid whimpers from individual bishops but that's about it. The usual suspects will speak up a little, perhaps Charles Chaput  or someone like him, but other than that it'll be business as usual, more outrage over immigration reform and global warming and exhortations to get out and vote in next years election than anything else.

In times like these it helps to remember Father Hardons prediction that things will get so disorienting and tough in the 21st century that only heroic Catholics will be able to survive with their faith intact, and I'm convinced he meant members of the hierarchy as well.

The way I see it gay marriage as the law of the land is a done deal, it's utterly inevitable. Just what it means for priests and for lay Catholics is anyone's guess. I predict it'll start with petty harassment, you know, zoning issues ( you can't build a new church there), code violations ( this church has asbestos,it's on or near a sinkhole etc.), anything to make it harder for Catholics to assemble or stay visible. The parishes that go along to get along will be the majority, and they will be left alone, but the ones that are vocal and rebel will be pursued and harassed.

There will be next to zero help from an apostate hierarchy, either locally or in a Rome so it'll be up to like minded Christians to band together under whatever leaders they can find that can get them the sacraments be they the rare mainstream Catholic bishop, Orthodox,SSPX or sedevacantist/ independent. Paradoxically this near total dissolution of official Christianity having any legal status or standing in the culture will do more to bring Christians of various groups together than all the academic round table discussions at ecumenical gatherings have done for the last 60 years!

Lastly, most of us will have to have a strong interior life, sometimes without the sacraments for long periods of time.  If the gay lobby and the militant secularists behind them get this gay marriage thing legalized you can bet it's going to eventually be hard to find a Church or at least a church that hasn't compromised.

To be quite frank, reading the news today (about the enthusiastic canonization process of an unrepentant heretic, and pope Francis' praise of his works, and pope Francis, who does not kneel at consecration or Eucharistic adoration saying we should kneel before the poor) I'm utterly convinced the Church has this coming. If ISIS invades Rome and starts beheading Cardinals, then I'm not sure I would be so sad.
God have mercy, especially on me, a sinner. I just wanted the Church to be firm. God help us, seriously.

If anything maybe this is part of this chastisement those that have been into Fatima have been talking about for so long,I mean even the official " third secret" released by the Vatican back in 2000 has a chilling image of a bishop in white being pursued through Rome by militants,only to be cornered and put to death. Could this refer to ISIS and their manifold supporters who certainly do have their eye on Rome and the Pope?  No doubt Popes have been killed before, but in an era when the Pope has become a cult of personality whose every word at every event and non event warrants the attention of Catholic blogs and pundits around the globe a papal martyrdom at the hands of ISIS would be crushing to the faith of perhaps millions.

Its crazy because my prayer life and my faith in Jesus Christ, my familiarity with the saints and the Virgin etc. do not waver at all even though I do not hardly get to Mass and there are times when I do not know where, if anywhere except for the local Orthodox Divine Liturgy or the occassional FSSP Mass I can go. I already feel like an exile with no place to lay my head. I cannot abide Pope Francis, so I tune him out. I don't trust or have any love for most of the bishops. I see the Pauline Mass and liturgical calendar as so great a rupture with our western patrimony that I cannot bring myself to go, almost ever.  My lifeline is the Divine Office and the Jesus Prayer and visiting great websites like Vultus Christi that give me hope that somehow there really are islands of peace amongst the thorns ( pax inter spinas .

Somehow this dark night of the Church and the culture will pass, and once I move across town I will perhaps slowly, tentatively attempt to attend the most reverent Pauline Mass I can if only to recieve Communion every now and then. I do miss it dearly, but am I at heart in Communion with Pope Francis, with what today in many places passes for the Roman Catholic Church? At heart I'm not if I'm honest,and yet I cannot really at heart become Orthodox. I tenaciously cling to whatever lifeline I can in these times I guess.
(05-03-2015, 06:54 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 06:25 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 06:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 03:40 PM)Ave Castitatis Lilium Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure none of the "Catholic" justices who will inevitably rule in favor of sodomy rights will face any ecclesiastical censure.

There might be a few tepid whimpers from individual bishops but that's about it. The usual suspects will speak up a little, perhaps Charles Chaput  or someone like him, but other than that it'll be business as usual, more outrage over immigration reform and global warming and exhortations to get out and vote in next years election than anything else.

In times like these it helps to remember Father Hardons prediction that things will get so disorienting and tough in the 21st century that only heroic Catholics will be able to survive with their faith intact, and I'm convinced he meant members of the hierarchy as well.

The way I see it gay marriage as the law of the land is a done deal, it's utterly inevitable. Just what it means for priests and for lay Catholics is anyone's guess. I predict it'll start with petty harassment, you know, zoning issues ( you can't build a new church there), code violations ( this church has asbestos,it's on or near a sinkhole etc.), anything to make it harder for Catholics to assemble or stay visible. The parishes that go along to get along will be the majority, and they will be left alone, but the ones that are vocal and rebel will be pursued and harassed.

There will be next to zero help from an apostate hierarchy, either locally or in a Rome so it'll be up to like minded Christians to band together under whatever leaders they can find that can get them the sacraments be they the rare mainstream Catholic bishop, Orthodox,SSPX or sedevacantist/ independent. Paradoxically this near total dissolution of official Christianity having any legal status or standing in the culture will do more to bring Christians of various groups together than all the academic round table discussions at ecumenical gatherings have done for the last 60 years!

Lastly, most of us will have to have a strong interior life, sometimes without the sacraments for long periods of time.  If the gay lobby and the militant secularists behind them get this gay marriage thing legalized you can bet it's going to eventually be hard to find a Church or at least a church that hasn't compromised.

To be quite frank, reading the news today (about the enthusiastic canonization process of an unrepentant heretic, and pope Francis' praise of his works, and pope Francis, who does not kneel at consecration or Eucharistic adoration saying we should kneel before the poor) I'm utterly convinced the Church has this coming. If ISIS invades Rome and starts beheading Cardinals, then I'm not sure I would be so sad.
God have mercy, especially on me, a sinner. I just wanted the Church to be firm. God help us, seriously.

If anything maybe this is part of this chastisement those that have been into Fatima have been talking about for so long,I mean even the official " third secret" released by the Vatican back in 2000 has a chilling image of a bishop in white being pursued through Rome by militants,only to be cornered and put to death. Could this refer to ISIS and their manifold supporters who certainly do have their eye on Rome and the Pope?  No doubt Popes have been killed before, but in an era when the Pope has become a cult of personality whose every word at every event and non event warrants the attention of Catholic blogs and pundits around the globe a papal martyrdom at the hands of ISIS would be crushing to the faith of perhaps millions.

Its crazy because my prayer life and my faith in Jesus Christ, my familiarity with the saints and the Virgin etc. do not waver at all even though I do not hardly get to Mass and there are times when I do not know where, if anywhere except for the local Orthodox Divine Liturgy or the occassional FSSP Mass I can go. I already feel like an exile with no place to lay my head. I cannot abide Pope Francis, so I tune him out. I don't trust or have any love for most of the bishops. I see the Pauline Mass and liturgical calendar as so great a rupture with our western patrimony that I cannot bring myself to go, almost ever.  My lifeline is the Divine Office and the Jesus Prayer and visiting great websites like Vultus Christi that give me hope that somehow there really are islands of peace amongst the thorns ( pax inter spinas .

Somehow this dark night of the Church and the culture will pass, and once I move across town I will perhaps slowly, tentatively attempt to attend the most reverent Pauline Mass I can if only to recieve Communion every now and then. I do miss it dearly, but am I at heart in Communion with Pope Francis, with what today in many places passes for the Roman Catholic Church? At heart I'm not if I'm honest,and yet I cannot really at heart become Orthodox. I tenaciously cling to whatever lifeline I can in these times I guess.

I wonder, though, what is the traditional meaning of being in communion with the pope. Surely it cannot mean that you agree with everything he does or that you think he's doing a good job, as you yourself admit that this is a wrong approach (even if millions take this approach in this modern communication age).
So, why would the person of the pope influence you partaking the body of Christ?

I wish I had that sort of inner peace. When I see excommunicated, communist sneaky men, dressing as prelates as if they were in some sort of gay parade or carnival, promoting inside the Church the destruction of the Church, I get very excited. My gut feeling is to, literally, knock them down.
And let's be honest, Cardinal Bergoglio would be among these guys. If he were not elected pope—say, if God were to grace us with Burke or even Scola as popes—we would be calling the Archbishop Bergoglio a heretic, if he ever were to emerge from his obscurity.

I don't know. I think I'll just support the SSPX. In one of the Latin Masses I go to the priest is turning very hostile to any critic of VII and the pope. And unless one can explain to me why exactly the NOM and all the reforms were a good thing, I don't see how one can simply prohibit any critic. What is seems to me is that some priests are saying like Groucho Marx “who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?”. Its clear that the Church is in crisis, but somehow we must deny it.
(05-03-2015, 07:21 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 06:54 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 06:25 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 06:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2015, 03:40 PM)Ave Castitatis Lilium Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure none of the "Catholic" justices who will inevitably rule in favor of sodomy rights will face any ecclesiastical censure.

There might be a few tepid whimpers from individual bishops but that's about it. The usual suspects will speak up a little, perhaps Charles Chaput  or someone like him, but other than that it'll be business as usual, more outrage over immigration reform and global warming and exhortations to get out and vote in next years election than anything else.

In times like these it helps to remember Father Hardons prediction that things will get so disorienting and tough in the 21st century that only heroic Catholics will be able to survive with their faith intact, and I'm convinced he meant members of the hierarchy as well.

The way I see it gay marriage as the law of the land is a done deal, it's utterly inevitable. Just what it means for priests and for lay Catholics is anyone's guess. I predict it'll start with petty harassment, you know, zoning issues ( you can't build a new church there), code violations ( this church has asbestos,it's on or near a sinkhole etc.), anything to make it harder for Catholics to assemble or stay visible. The parishes that go along to get along will be the majority, and they will be left alone, but the ones that are vocal and rebel will be pursued and harassed.

There will be next to zero help from an apostate hierarchy, either locally or in a Rome so it'll be up to like minded Christians to band together under whatever leaders they can find that can get them the sacraments be they the rare mainstream Catholic bishop, Orthodox,SSPX or sedevacantist/ independent. Paradoxically this near total dissolution of official Christianity having any legal status or standing in the culture will do more to bring Christians of various groups together than all the academic round table discussions at ecumenical gatherings have done for the last 60 years!

Lastly, most of us will have to have a strong interior life, sometimes without the sacraments for long periods of time.  If the gay lobby and the militant secularists behind them get this gay marriage thing legalized you can bet it's going to eventually be hard to find a Church or at least a church that hasn't compromised.

To be quite frank, reading the news today (about the enthusiastic canonization process of an unrepentant heretic, and pope Francis' praise of his works, and pope Francis, who does not kneel at consecration or Eucharistic adoration saying we should kneel before the poor) I'm utterly convinced the Church has this coming. If ISIS invades Rome and starts beheading Cardinals, then I'm not sure I would be so sad.
God have mercy, especially on me, a sinner. I just wanted the Church to be firm. God help us, seriously.

If anything maybe this is part of this chastisement those that have been into Fatima have been talking about for so long,I mean even the official " third secret" released by the Vatican back in 2000 has a chilling image of a bishop in white being pursued through Rome by militants,only to be cornered and put to death. Could this refer to ISIS and their manifold supporters who certainly do have their eye on Rome and the Pope?  No doubt Popes have been killed before, but in an era when the Pope has become a cult of personality whose every word at every event and non event warrants the attention of Catholic blogs and pundits around the globe a papal martyrdom at the hands of ISIS would be crushing to the faith of perhaps millions.

Its crazy because my prayer life and my faith in Jesus Christ, my familiarity with the saints and the Virgin etc. do not waver at all even though I do not hardly get to Mass and there are times when I do not know where, if anywhere except for the local Orthodox Divine Liturgy or the occassional FSSP Mass I can go. I already feel like an exile with no place to lay my head. I cannot abide Pope Francis, so I tune him out. I don't trust or have any love for most of the bishops. I see the Pauline Mass and liturgical calendar as so great a rupture with our western patrimony that I cannot bring myself to go, almost ever.  My lifeline is the Divine Office and the Jesus Prayer and visiting great websites like Vultus Christi that give me hope that somehow there really are islands of peace amongst the thorns ( pax inter spinas .

Somehow this dark night of the Church and the culture will pass, and once I move across town I will perhaps slowly, tentatively attempt to attend the most reverent Pauline Mass I can if only to recieve Communion every now and then. I do miss it dearly, but am I at heart in Communion with Pope Francis, with what today in many places passes for the Roman Catholic Church? At heart I'm not if I'm honest,and yet I cannot really at heart become Orthodox. I tenaciously cling to whatever lifeline I can in these times I guess.

I wonder, though, what is the traditional meaning of being in communion with the pope. Surely it cannot mean that you agree with everything he does or that you think he's doing a good job, as you yourself admit that this is a wrong approach (even if millions take this approach in this modern communication age).
So, why would the person of the pope influence you partaking the body of Christ?

I wish I had that sort of inner peace. When I see excommunicated, communist sneaky men, dressing as prelates as if they were in some sort of gay parade or carnival, promoting inside the Church the destruction of the Church, I get very excited. My gut feeling is to, literally, knock them down.
And let's be honest, Cardinal Bergoglio would be among these guys. If he were not elected pope—say, if God were to grace us with Burke or even Scola as popes—we would be calling the Archbishop Bergoglio a heretic, if he ever were to emerge from his obscurity.

I don't know. I think I'll just support the SSPX. In one of the Latin Masses I go to the priest is turning very hostile to any critic of VII and the pope. And unless one can explain to me why exactly the NOM and all the reforms were a good thing, I don't see how one can simply prohibit any critic. What is seems to me is that some priests are saying like Groucho Marx “who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?”. Its clear that the Church is in crisis, but somehow we must deny it.

True enough about the Pope, about being in communion with him. What vexes me more than anything is how Rome under the aegis of the papacy could so spectacularly wreckovate its patrimony and almost 60 years later still be celebrating it as some sort of renewal and sign  of the Spirit at work in the " people of God". Somehow intuitively I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church and not Orthodoxy, and that, while very cogent and logical, sedevacantism is not the answer, but I can hardly bring myself to set foot in a church where the new Mass is offered,and for all intents and purposes I'm a pious layman totally sustained by some sort of supernatural uplift granted by my faithful recitation of the Office and the Jesus Prayer. I can't explain it really.

You're most likely correct about Bergoglio if he were not pope. The only thing that makes his words and actions seemingly above reproach amongst the masses of Catholics is the fact that he is Pope.

That's the big issue here, this sense that one must just pretend that everything is wonderful in the Church, that no matter who is Pope, no matter what they say,no matter how far the reforms have wandered from our patrimony there is nothing to worry about. That is something I know that I cannot do.

Perhaps my own way of dealing with things by being like a lay hermit ( not in my personal life, but as it pertains to Church functions) is my own way of coping with the cognitive dissonance seemingly inherent in the average Roman Catholic parish of today. At any rate I'm at the point where I understand why some people go sede, SSPX, Indult, FSSP, Eastern Rite, or Orthodox--- sometimes it's for matters of conviction that's well thought out, other times it's simply to find solace and sanctuary.
(05-03-2015, 07:21 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder, though, what is the traditional meaning of being in communion with the pope. Surely it cannot mean that you agree with everything he does or that you think he's doing a good job

Here is what Fr. Adrian Fortescue, author of The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described and The Early Papacy (a defense of Catholic teaching on the papacy) wrote to a priest friend traveling to Rome in 1920:

Quote:“By the way, will you give a message from me to the Roman Ordinary? Tell him to look after his own diocese and not to write any more Encyclicals. Also, that there were twelve apostles and that all bishops are their successors. Also, to read the works of St Paul, also to open his front door and walk out, also that the faith handed  to our fathers is more important than the Sacred Heart or certain alleged happenings at Lourdes.”
I think Justice Scalia has been looking at the situation where small business owners have been driven out of business and ruined financially for not kowtowing to the gay hegemony, and extrapolated a little bit.  I think his observation is not only not disingenuous, but inevitable.
(05-02-2015, 02:48 PM)Josey Wales Wrote: [ -> ]Scalia could be tossing a floater out there hoping that Kennedy realizes the seriousness of this issue and his vote.  It's gonna be 5-4 one way or the other.

the whole supreme court has filled the pool with baby ruths.
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