FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

I haven't found any thread on this, surprisingly.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...cials.html

I can translate those few parts of the documentary he performs in (about marriage "equality" situation in Poland) that are already available:

Quote:My name is Krzysztof Charamsa. Prelate Krzysztof Charamsa. I'm an official of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the former Holy Inquisition. I'm the second secretary of the International Theological Commission, a theologian, philosopher, bioethicist. I teach at the Pontifical Gregorian University and the Pontifical Athenaeum Regina Apostolorum in Rome. I'm gay. I thought about your film, 'Article 18', of our constitution, because I love our nation, our country. I'm a patriot concerned about our home. In my homeland's parliament, you can insult homosexual people - GET AWAY WITH IT - and they don't turn off your microphone. You can go on a tournee around Poland, like Father Oko [a very conservative Novus Ordo priest that concentrates on the issue of homosexuality in his speeches] and this demagogue and ideologist's theatre of absurd - and get away with it. The elected President can make insinuations about some improper clothes of my social group [President Duda, asked whether he would welcome gay people working in his office, answered that yes, unless they go to work dressed improperly], and won't apologise the next day - but will get away with it. The previous president, during his five-year term, wouldn't meet homosexual families - even for half an hour - to see them face to face, but would rather ignore them, whom he should serve, and get away with it. The Church remains hideously silent when Dominik from Bieżuń takes his own life [a teenager who hung himself because he had been bullied as gay] because he can't stand homophobia and hatred. When the Church is silent and only leaves the matter for the prosecutor's office, when the Church that should be a moral authority is silent like that, it means we've encountered whole expanses of crisis, hypocrisy, deceit and indifference. Where is our Gospel?

Quote:What does the Church know about homosexuality? Nothing, I think. She doesn't know gay, lesbian, bisexual or intersexual people. What she knows is a whole bunch of stereotypes, false images, lies and cliches. Look - my Church suggests that homosexual people hide, not reveal who they are, live anonymously in isolation, and in total celibacy. They can't in any way express their sexuality. This is not the path of salvation, for a healthy person. This is not the path Christ wanted for us. But the Church did not understand the sign of time, which for humanity is this challenge consisting in this minority needing respect for its own dignity and rights. Just as it once was with slaves, Jews, women. These were and are enormous groups crying out for acknowledgement of their rights. They are no lobby, but people. They beg humanity to acknowledge their right to love, to normal, human love.

Thoughts?

(10-03-2015, 08:10 PM)PolishTrad Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:What does the Church know about homosexuality? Nothing, I think. She doesn't know gay, lesbian, bisexual or intersexual people. What she knows is a whole bunch of stereotypes, false images, lies and cliches. Look - my Church suggests that homosexual people hide, not reveal who they are, live anonymously in isolation, and in total celibacy. They can't in any way express their sexuality. This is not the path of salvation, for a healthy person. This is not the path Christ wanted for us. But the Church did not understand the sign of time, which for humanity is this challenge consisting in this minority needing respect for its own dignity and rights. Just as it once was with slaves, Jews, women. These were and are enormous groups crying out for acknowledgement of their rights. They are no lobby, but people. They beg humanity to acknowledge their right to love, to normal, human love.

Thoughts?

I don't know of any Church teaching that says homosexuals have to hide, not reveal who they are and what their struggles are, and live anonymously, in isolation. I most certainly don't advocate for any of that. I want homosexuals OUT of the closet, honest about their struggles, able to integrate who they are privately and publicly, with no shame for a disorder they did not choose any more than a manic-depressive person (like me) chooses to be manic depressive. I cannot stand malicious name-calling against homosexuals or any form of treating them badly just because they have that disorder. I've seen some really ugly stuff in some small sub-sets of the trad world -- e.g., people actually asking if it's OK to invite their homosexual Uncle to Thanksgiving, and other sorts of weirdness (as long as the Uncle isn't planning on having sex on the table, right next to the centerpiece, or regale the family with stories of his sexual conquests, what problem could there possibly be in treating him like a beloved family member?! I mean, do people really think homosexuals would do something like that -- or, rather, that they'd be any more likely to do that than anyone else?). I've seen lots of talk from those same types of people that characterize homosexuals as being sinners because they are homosexual (not what the Church teaches at all!) and that ignores homosexuals' humanity, their ability to love, their need for love, their need to walk the earth with integrity and honesty. They completely ignore eros when it comes to homosexuals (and heterosexuals, for that matter), are very psychologically ignorant and emotionally retarded, and think any affection or love is necessarily genital in nature when it comes to homosexuals. These people always have their minds in the gutter (especially focused on anal sex, when it comes to homosexuality; they're obsessed with it, going on about "sodomites" when talking about homosexuals, conveniently ignoring the rampant sodomy in the heterosexual world, many varieties of which they likely practice with their own spouses) --  even as they accuse everyone else of being worse sinners than they are. Those sorts of attitudes sicken me. And I'll fight against them as long as I live.

It's obvious to me that homosexuals should have the same rights as others (which doesn't go to say that homosexual "marriage" is OK. Homosexuals already had the exact same rights as others; they could marry someone of the opposite sex most any time they wanted to, and straight people also couldn't marry people of their own sex. Perfectly equal). I don't know how things are in Poland, but homosexuals in the US have had equal rights for a long, long time. Being free socially -- free to be honest about who they are and what their struggles are -- was more hard won, and now it's gone to the point of normalizing homosexuality and condoning homosexual acts, both of which are wrong -- but that social freedom, the ability to move through one's life with integrity and honesty, is a good thing.

Acting sexually on homosexual impulses is another matter. They're to be chaste just like everyone else is supposed to be chaste. Gay "marriage" is a joke, obviously (though the deep affection homosexuals can feel for each other is NOT a joke at all!), and sex outside marriage is wrong, so unless a homosexual can find a low libido spouse of the opposite sex and can marry him or her honestly, she or he should remain celibate. That's a very tough row to hoe, no easier for gay people than it is for straight people, but it's not the end of the world. And judgment against homosexual failings in their struggles to remain chaste (not homosexuals or any other souls in themselves) should be ordinate, dealt with in the same way one'd handle sexual failings on the part of heterosexuals, done with the utmost prudence and charity, and handled with humility -- after taking the beam out of one's own eye first. The "Conversion of the Heart" page covers things like admonishment, instructing the ignorant, etc.

This sort of talk gets me called a "homophobic hater" by the progressive types, and a "fag hag" by that small sub-set of trads mentioned earlier, but so be it.

Famously BXVI repeated the doctrine that its not proper to consecrate a disordered desire. People with SSA should not be admitted into the priesthood if they don't sort themselves out first.

This case in particular is utterly absurd. Look at what he says: homosexual love is good, it constitutes familial love, the Church needs to get with the times, it doesn't know anything about gays (because, of course, this guy is the first gay ever). Its so much modernism it actually hurts to read.
And this guy was not only professor at two seminaries but part of the CDF! Shameful.

He was fired with almost breathtaking speed anyway.


C.

(10-03-2015, 09:43 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]Famously BXVI repeated the doctrine that its not proper to consecrate a disordered desire. People with SSA should not be admitted into the priesthood if they don't sort themselves out first.

This case in particular is utterly absurd. Look at what he says: homosexual love is good, it constitutes familial love, the Church needs to get with the times, it doesn't know anything about gays (because, of course, this guy is the first gay ever). Its so much modernism it actually hurts to read.
And this guy was not only professor at two seminaries but part of the CDF! Shameful.

I think any love is good. The problem is that this guy seems to be equating love with sex. While the Church doesn't teach anything like he's saying, I think it is so that some people (including that small sub-set of trads) expect that "homosexual people hide, not reveal who they are, live anonymously in isolation". I've seen such sentiments expressed here, on this very forum, before the purging of the "toxic" types. But this priest is confusing some crappy attitudes with Church teaching, and it isn't fair. It just isn't true. And I totally agree with you that he shouldn't have entered a seminary before conquering his homosexual disorder (something that can sometimes happen, but often doesn't). Spiritual fatherhood requires fathers, and great fathers are men who are comfortable being men and who have enough of the stereotypical masculine qualities needed to make good leaders. And they should inspire younger men to become priests, something most homosexuals won't be able to do. Homosexuals tend to have a disordered relationship with their fathers (if they have them), and, so, are unable to model fatherhood for others. There's a reason the Church has forbad the ordination of homosexuals -- even chaste ones -- for all these years. And I say this loaded with good will toward chaste homosexuals who're trying to do the right things. They have such a burden to endure... God bless them.

But their burdens aren't -- or at least shouldn't -- be any more difficult than those carried by other unmarried people. Being single, not being able to express love through sex, not being able to experience the purely physical thrills of sex -- a lot of straight people are in that exact same boat. Consider all the sacramentally married people who've been dumped, for ex, or all the people who for any of a thousand reasons aren't called to marriage. It isn't any easier for them to be chaste than it is for homosexuals to be chaste, and I get a little tired hearing ideas that homosexuals somehow have it worse than those others in that regard.  I maintain, though, that while the burdens of homosexuals on the sexual level aren't any different from the burdens other single people share, and while there shouldn't be much of any other sort of burden placed on them in a healthy society, those things this priest mentioned are so. He's wrong in acting as if those things -- the expectations that homosexuals shut up, lie, live without love, in isolation, etc. -- are Church teaching, but he's right in that too many people do have those ideas.

His blaming all that on the Church, though, is disgusting. And, as you said, to think that he was a prof at two seminaries, and a part of the CDF --- "shameful" is the right word.

He should have never entered the priesthood with his sexual orientation, he knew there would be temptations from day one, the same with those priests who want to marry. They know damn well what the rules are thjey just want to tell JESUS what is right or wrong.  The sin of Adam & Eve never ends have copy cats, i will not follow Gods orders i know better

(10-03-2015, 11:22 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ]The sin of Adam & Eve never ends have copy cats, i will not follow Gods orders i know better

Isn't that pretty much the definition of protestantism and modernism?!

The big thing in this story is not this mans sexual orientation or his "coming out" but that he apparently worked for the CDF in the first place. What this means is that the gay good old boys network has a pipeline right into the very heart of the Church where big decisions are made.

Don't tell me the people in the Vatican or anyone associated with the CDF including the Pope hadn't at least heard rumors about this priest and his well dressed sexual partner.

No man with SSA should even enter the seminary. It's as ridiculous as if I were to go live in a convent.

(10-03-2015, 08:55 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know of any Church teaching that says homosexuals have to hide, not reveal who they are and what their struggles are, and live anonymously, in isolation. I most certainly don't advocate for any of that. I want homosexuals OUT of the closet, honest about their struggles, able to integrate who they are privately and publicly, with no shame for a disorder they did not choose any more than a manic-depressive person (like me) chooses to be manic depressive.

I realise that more and more trads are like you and it is so consoling. I have come out to a couple of close hetero trad friends and I realise that this whole time I actually harboured more homophobia than they did!  I am really surprised how tolerant they have been.

For the past few years I would have strongly disagreed with what you said above. I lived in fear of people finding out.  Now I look back I realise how miserable I have been. Now that I have grown and am in the process of putting all this conversion therapy and internalised homophobia behind me, I now agree with you. You are correct, there is no reason why gay Catholics have to live in such an isolated situation.