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(10-15-2015, 03:03 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: [ -> ]My answer to that question, Leonard, is nothing, because by the grace and mercy of God, I have the gift of faith, which is a supernatural virtue.  I believe God.  My faith, therefore, is not merely the conclusion of syllogism or the result of an investigation.  If it were, it would be only human faith.

This is more or less my own take as well. I was just trying to address the real underlining question of the OP.
(10-15-2015, 01:44 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-15-2015, 11:05 AM)Whitey Wrote: [ -> ]I think the line is quite clear.

One must maintain communion with Rome. I can't call myself an orthodox Roman Catholic and assist SSPX or Indie Chapel Masses.  Perhaps that's easy for me to say because I have a local diocesan TLM to assist on Sunday, but as one in need of daily Mass, I'll still assist at a Novus Ordo Mass on weekdays and feel perfectly comfortable ding so. Your daily Mass goers are generally orthodox and the terrible contemporary/protestant hymns aren't part of the weekday Mass as a rule.

jmo

Funny you should say such a thing, while a Bishop of the Church, while visiting the SSPX seminaries by order of the Holy See, said almost the exact opposite.  :LOL:


Thinking about this I think I agree with Leo above here. The fact is, I believe in the Church not for one reason but various, and this not by reason alone but by conviction of faith, which illuminates reason. So I suppose there isn't just one thing that would make me an unbeliever—though, of course, I've been shaken lately, but nothing that a deep breath, a good confession and some therapeutic reading of the cool Saint of Aquinas couldn't heal.

The worst case scenario I could think of is if they change, say, the Catechism. For instance, if they not only omit the part about homosexual desires but say it is a good thing. Or ordain women, or any such impossibility. I don't know what I'd do but watch very closely what the faithful Cardinals and Bishops do and follow them, who, I hope if this comes to happen, I'll still believe are pastors.

Love Bishop Schneider and Bishop Fellay as well . But Bishop Schneider's opinion doesn't trump the current decision to suspend the SSPX clergy.  :shrug:
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(10-18-2015, 02:55 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: [ -> ]Where's the line? There is no line in the sand for me because  whatever else, I'll carry on in a chapel where the Latin Mass is said and traditional doctrine is upheld. The Lord will draw the line in the sand and that line I suppose is for Our Lord to know and for us to find out.

Well said
I live 20 minutes from a rather liberal Novus Ordo church. Lovely old building, shame about the silly Protestant nonsense that goes on inside.
I was attending a diocesan indult TLM until Easter this year, when the priest who said it moved up to Brisbane to join the Oratory.
I now travel for three hours each way to the SSPX at Tynong.
I home catechise my children, using the Baltimore Catechism.
To put it bluntly, the things that occur in the NO undermine what I teach them and is a danger to the Faith. The SSPX Mass is fully in accordance with Catholic teachings. My 9 year old will be making his confession and communion there next year.
Janine of Bruthen
I don't think that there's a simple answer, Janine.

Good folk doing the best they can with what they have need never fear the Judge.

Pretentious pricks thinking that their temporal adulations reflect their worth are skating on thin ice indeed.
I have said this before and I will say it again. Give me a Borgia any day over a Bergoglio. Whereas Borgia may and did have mistakes with regards to his moral character, he never endeavored to actually appease anyone and make statements that would be detrimental to the belief in the doctrine and dogmas of the Church. Bergoglio, on the otjer hand, did make statements that are so confusing, and may send mixed messages. On the one hand he is orthodox, on the other, he is a raging liberal.

N.
(10-24-2015, 04:59 AM)Janine of Bruthen Wrote: [ -> ]I live 20 minutes from a rather liberal Novus Ordo church. Lovely old building, shame about the silly Protestant nonsense that goes on inside.
I was attending a diocesan indult TLM until Easter this year, when the priest who said it moved up to Brisbane to join the Oratory.
I now travel for three hours each way to the SSPX at Tynong.
I home catechise my children, using the Baltimore Catechism.
To put it bluntly, the things that occur in the NO undermine what I teach them and is a danger to the Faith. The SSPX Mass is fully in accordance with Catholic teachings. My 9 year old will be making his confession and communion there next year.
Janine of Bruthen

Do you do that traveling on a weekly basis? I am in a similar position, the nearest TLM, SSPX or diocese, is 2.5 hours away. I can't see myself doing it on a weekly basis.
Thank-you everyone for your thoughtful and honest replies. Truthfully, I've had a hard time coming back and reading them, I suppose I am upset with myself for even asking the question or contemplating it's answers.

I find that the modern Church is disturbing and I'm having a hard time reconciling what she is with what she teaches in the Catechism. Personally, it is destroying me. I'm trying to "don't worry and Catholic on", but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to participate in our local NO parish, or to maintain personal devotions, or do any of the "the motions". What's the point when no one else does, and no one else seems concerned that no one else does.


(10-25-2015, 08:41 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: [ -> ]Thank-you everyone for your thoughtful and honest replies. Truthfully, I've had a hard time coming back and reading them, I suppose I am upset with myself for even asking the question or contemplating it's answers.

I find that the modern Church is disturbing and I'm having a hard time reconciling what she is with what she teaches in the Catechism. Personally, it is destroying me. I'm trying to "don't worry and Catholic on", but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to participate in our local NO parish, or to maintain personal devotions, or do any of the "the motions". What's the point when no one else does, and no one else seems concerned that no one else does.


I assure you that you are not alone in feeling this alienation,cognitive dissonance and struggle to maintain as a Catholic in today's Church. As you can see from the varieties of responses, most of us are in the same boat,individuals trying to hang on somehow, yet all united at the same time by sharing our struggles and coming to the realization that we are not alone.

I get it, the whole " what's the point" breaking point. I know you arent alone in this either.  We all have different ways of coping. I hold on somehow through sheer stubbornness and because for me prayer--- especially the rhythm of the hours and the Jesus Prayer--- are necessary for my survival somehow. I slog on because I don't know what else I can do, because I don't know what I'd do if I stopped praying.  At times ( most times!) I have only a connection to the saints in heaven, the true faithful here ( wherever and whoever they are) and zero love for or connection in any way with the pope, the hierarchy or the modern parishes in my area.

At heart I really am both Eastern and Western, and for some reason intuitively,beyond all polemic, apologetic or argument I have this sense that it's important that I try to maintain some connection to the Roman Church. I could be happy in a fully Old Believer style Russian parish,but only in Rome can I also have St Bernard, the glories of Gregorian chant and the rest of the best of the West and the East.

At rock bottom I cannot reproach those that maintain however they can, whether it's being a home aloner, attending an SSPX chapel, taking everything Father Cekada says as gospel truth or even leaving in disgust for the Copts in Egypt or some Greek or Russian Orthodox option a la former Benedictine Hieromonk Gabriel Bunge. Things are sufficiently grave today that we all just do the best we can. May the good Lord have mercy on us all in this time of Mass confusion.
I don't know where the line is. It's hard for me to conceive that Francis would go for women priests or anything else that is formally heretical. I just pray and hold on because to me it is still the Church. If he does do something formally heretical there is not much I can do about it, it will sure be interesting. I only comfort myself in thinking that this is history going where God wants it to go. I believe in Our Lady of Good Success so I think it is going to take divine intervention to really fix things.  I also don't expect Pope Francis to live that long and I think he is driving everybody crazy so to me it's likely they will elect someone better next time. Wish I had better liturgies to go to but no options there.

C.
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