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So, a question for those Fishies who are like me... who are faithful to Rome, but at time finds the Sed position attractive, or at least, somewhat logical.

Where is the line for you to remain within the official structure of the Church? Ordination of women? Communion for remarried?

And where would you go? SSPX? Somewhere else? Lone Wolf?

I'm a Sed since the Church traded Aramese for Greek in liturgy.
(10-06-2015, 02:52 PM)Catlick Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a Sed since the Church traded Aramese for Greek in liturgy.

I don't understand what you're referring to. Can you explain?
I focus on Jesus Christ.  I cultivate a trust in Him and a healthy distrust in my own judgment.  He will never fault me for adhering to the official Church. 

I also abstain from ecclesiastical drama and focus on the real drama, which is my own inner struggle to cooperate with grace.
The line is something different for everyone. As you probably know, there are several different options for seeking to understand the crisis in the Roman Catholic Church, including but not limited to:

Recognize and Resist (SSPX, and to some extent FSSP, etc)
Sedevacantist (some think the new rites are valid, others don't; some follow various groups with different slants like the CMRI, SSPV or are more eclectic or eccentric like the SGG group,independent chapels etc.
Eastern Rites-- many take refuge in the East without going full on Orthodox.
Loyalists ( trad leaning or conservative Catholics who will stick it out within the canonical boundaries of the Church no matter what.
Denialists-- These folks deny there is a crisis at all.
Catholic Home Aloners This is largely where I fall, not  because I don't believe there are any valid priests left, but because I have no access to the TLM or Eastern Rites and just can't bring myself to the Pauline Mass that often. I'm more comfortable praying the Office,the Jesus Prayer, private prayers in an empty Church and Mass whenever I feel like I can get to one. Always during Christmas and around Easter though. I'm also pretty much an Eastern Rite guy, although I'm not always and in everything.

With all these groups there are points along the spectrum.

I've probably not exhausted this list by any means or even written about this stuff as well as I'd have liked.


Just what the line is is up to each of us.
I suppose this question could be asked in the present: what you do today? From parish to parish, chapel to chapel, etc., you have a big variation of degrees of orthodoxy. One must kinda pick and choose which church one goes to. Even though I'm not the oldest guy in Catholicism I already know which ones to avoid.

If something tragic happens at the Synod I suppose things wouldn't change very drastically locally. As the French say, if you want to change a mediocre man's conviction you move him from one place to another. So likewise, some primates might be all orthodox when you have an orthodox pope, but will ordain women smiling if the pope tells them to do so. But then again, we already have liberal bishops. Some of us right now know of cases of absurd annulment, of people abusing the sacraments, of communion in the hand (yea, as if no one is familiar with that abuse).

I personally worship within the structures. But I have a soft spot for the SSPX—in fact, as I plan to move soon I might go to their chapel with more frequency during weekdays. They have the most reverent and well done Mass I've ever seen (excluding the Sunday TLMs). The only other accessible chapel with weekday TLMs have a Mass so rushed one can barely pray. By the way, I also go to the Benedictine NOM sometimes—there's even a monk that prays the Canon and not the kth Eucharistic prayer.
I'd never go Sed simply because I have absolutely no authority to decide whether a pope is a pope or not.

The important thing is to find a sane place to receive the sacraments, raise your children if you have them, etc.
As for the ultimate line for staying in the Church: try not to worry about it. The Church is protected, and we are not required to be in communion with a given bishop's brilliant opinions (imagine trying to divine his innermost secret thoughts to establish if we are in communion with the Apostles or not).
(10-06-2015, 03:51 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-06-2015, 02:52 PM)Catlick Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a Sed since the Church traded Aramese for Greek in liturgy.

I don't understand what you're referring to. Can you explain?

It was a joke.

On topic: in the context of the current Synod 'my' line would be if the Pope declares that the divorced can receive Holy Communion. I would go SSPX in that case.

But 'on the ground' (i.e. where you go to Mass on Sundays, which priest you confess to) it would be more difficult. While still valid, I would hesitate to receive sacraments from priests who collaborate with the Kasperite heresy. I would receive sacraments from them if needed (Easter obligation in case of Communion, state of mortal sin in case of Confession) but would definitely look to SSPX-priests for moral instruction and stuff like marriage annulment.
think we should look at the big picture and remember the words of Jesus;

13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

If Jesus says that teh gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church then that is reason enough for me to be optimistic. Also in the end of the Twenty Eighth Gospel of Matthew Jesus said, "And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

(10-06-2015, 01:48 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: [ -> ]So, a question for those Fishies who are like me... who are faithful to Rome, but at time finds the Sed position attractive, or at least, somewhat logical.

Where is the line for you to remain within the official structure of the Church? Ordination of women? Communion for remarried?

And where would you go? SSPX? Somewhere else? Lone Wolf?

I think I would draw the line at heresy.  Even the pope cannot go against doctrine.  And if we ever have a heretical pope, then it would probably push me over the edge.  What would I do then?  I don't know.  If there's schism, I'd probably go with the faction that stays true to the Magisterium; otherwise, probably the SSPX.
Things have been pretty bad throughout the churches history, but especially in the last 100 years or so. If the antics of some of the Renassissance Popes or the litanies of embarassing and contradictory things said and done against our patrimony by Paul VI through Francis haven't convinced you to cross that line yet I'm not sure anything will.

Let's be honest, things have been pretty bad and most of us haven't left and probably never will. The only thing that might change over the years is how we manage the cognitive dissonance inherent in modern Catholic life in the average parish. Some of us might go Sede for awhile, become militant SSPX adherents, Eastern Rite enthusiasts or maybe like myself, occasional lone wolf home aloners, but ultimately most of us will never leave.
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