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I got this in an email, sent my responses, but am hoping you all here would answer some of these questions as well. We have to help this person get back on the right track, eh?




Anyway my whole point is I wondered if you can talk a little bit. I don't believe that baptism is a requirement to heaven and if not done people go to hell.

I don't believe theosis is a good or appropriate goal of religion... It also reminds me of paganism, voodoo and the occult practices.

I don't believe human sacrifice or God sacrifice is ok or what is needed for salvation.

I guess I don't believe in the holy trinity any more once God becomes man- and dies he isn't anymore. God can't die only creation of gods can die.....

My son even asked me one day if God as Jesus had a human soul in addition to being God and where did it go..... And I can't answer that. He still believes in Jesus.

I have been turning to Judaism and some Kabbalah. I have found some peace there and with the aish website and others. I am writing because I thought you may be able to say something that makes sense somehow. It's is a big change to go from agnostic NO to TLM to veiling at mass to looking at sspx to be a non dogmatic sedevacantist.....

And the big thing I don't like is that it seems to me the point of Catholicism isn't just the sacraments etc., but it's also the willingness to surrender your will and take on more suffering to relieve Jesus suffering. It feels like a bad ralationship where God is the victim or scape goat and then we change places to rescue the victim and become a victim and it's like a mental hold. Even the basis of referring to people as fr, mother etc who are not our parents, try's to build a bond to create a pull there and it's strong when you use those. Even communion on the tongue- you know babies stick their tongues out to nurse..... It's like there are things done in the subconscious level to get you to stay even when you encounter discord politics and things that just don't seem to fit.

But I do have a tie to the blessed mother and I don't understand why since by default I shouldn't find it difficult to walk away since her importance is the theotokos ....

I guess st John of the cross and st Teresa of Avila were well aware of kaballah and used it in developing their spiritual ascent. They were from Jewish families who's converted.. Anyway I then think of the shekinah which literally means dwelling of God and it fits who mary is.

I just don't see how Jesus can be the messiah when human blood sacrifice was prohibited by the Old Testament covenant and yet we see pagan cultures have this in their systems and we see it echoed or shadowed in the New Testament. After all the sacrifice of Mass is the point of the church since Christ until he comes again. And why does he have to come again. When messiah comes there will be peace- I don't see peace in the world since Christ was here.

So theology. I don't understand some things well. I don't buy this replacement theology stuff. Maybe you might have something to say or life experience to share.
Quote:I don't believe theosis is a good or appropriate goal of religion... It also reminds me of paganism, voodoo and the occult practices.

I would ask him what he thinks theosis is.

Quote:I don't believe human sacrifice or God sacrifice is ok or what is needed for salvation.

I guess I don't believe in the holy trinity any more once God becomes man- and dies he isn't anymore. God can't die only creation of gods can die.....

I think what he is really saying is that he doesn't believe in original sin.

Quote:My son even asked me one day if God as Jesus had a human soul in addition to being God and where did it go..... And I can't answer that. He still believes in Jesus.

The best answer to this is to seriously meditate on the Nicene Creed that we say every day at mass on Sunday. 
Quote:have been turning to Judaism and some Kabbalah. I have found some peace there and with the aish website and others. I am writing because I thought you may be able to say something that makes sense somehow. It's is a big change to go from agnostic NO to TLM to veiling at mass to looking at sspx to be a non dogmatic sedevacantist.....

And the big thing I don't like is that it seems to me the point of Catholicism isn't just the sacraments etc., but it's also the willingness to surrender your will and take on more suffering to relieve Jesus suffering. It feels like a bad ralationship where God is the victim or scape goat and then we change places to rescue the victim and become a victim and it's like a mental hold. Even the basis of referring to people as fr, mother etc who are not our parents, try's to build a bond to create a pull there and it's strong when you use those. Even communion on the tongue- you know babies stick their tongues out to nurse..... It's like there are things done in the subconscious level to get you to stay even when you encounter discord politics and things that just don't seem to fit.

I think that this person is being led astray by the Devil and we need to pray for him.

Quote:But I do have a tie to the blessed mother and I don't understand why since by default I shouldn't find it difficult to walk away since her importance is the theotokos

There is still hope for him yet.

Quote:I guess st John of the cross and st Teresa of Avila were well aware of kaballah and used it in developing their spiritual ascent. They were from Jewish families who's converted.. Anyway I then think of the shekinah which literally means dwelling of God and it fits who mary is.

He obviously doesn't really know Wt John of the Cross or St Theresa of Avila.
Quote:I just don't see how Jesus can be the messiah when human blood sacrifice was prohibited by the Old Testament covenant and yet we see pagan cultures have this in their systems and we see it echoed or shadowed in the New Testament. After all the sacrifice of Mass is the point of the church since Christ until he comes again. And why does he have to come again. When messiah comes there will be peace- I don't see peace in the world since Christ was here.

This person apparently doesn't understand the consequences of original sin

Quote:So theology. I don't understand some things well. I don't buy this replacement theology stuff. Maybe you might have something to say or life experience to share.

Faith in God is not about understanding. It is about believing. The priest Zacharias recieved a message from the angel and he argued with it. The Holy Virgin recieved a message from the angel and she submitted herself to the will of God. Jesus said, "Blessed are they who believe without seeing." 


Poche, I'm glad you post here, and very glad you post lots of interesting articles -- but I'm hoping you can do me a favor and do two things:

1) Use quote marks around text that you're quoting. To do that, you can either hit the QUOTE button instead of the REPLY button, erase everything but the pertinent parts you're responding to, and start your response underneath that quote -- underneath the "close quote" tag -- i.e., the tag that looks like this:

[ / quote ]

-- but with no spaces.

Anything you put in between these two purple "tags" will come out so that everyone will know it's a quote and not you speaking:

[ quote ]   text goes here  [ / quote ]

2. The second request is to not post different posts in response to one post. If you would, make one post instead of, say, seven, and use the quote tags as described above to let others know which text is yours, and which text you're quoting.

Doing these two things will make your posts a LOT more understandable.  As it is, I will re-format your posts above and put them into a single post.

Thanks!
(10-14-2015, 12:22 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:I don't believe theosis is a good or appropriate goal of religion... It also reminds me of paganism, voodoo and the occult practices.

I would ask him what he thinks theosis is.

I agree totally. In fact the Eastern concept of theosis goes through the exact same three stages laid out in Fr Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, OP's works 'The Three Ages of the Interior Life' and 'The Three Ways of the Spiritual Life'. It has absolutely nothing to do with 'paganism, voodoo and the occult practices'!
(10-14-2015, 04:10 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]I agree totally. In fact the Eastern concept of theosis goes through the exact same three stages laid out in Fr Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, OP's works 'The Three Ages of the Interior Life' and 'The Three Ways of the Spiritual Life'. It has absolutely nothing to do with 'paganism, voodoo and the occult practices'!

I don't think the concept is "Eastern." It's totally Scriptural. I think that just the word -- "theosis" -- is Eastern. Westerners would be more apt to use the word "glorification."
The issue related to human blood sacrifice from the OP is a little muddled, I would suggest pointing him to the New Advent article about Sacrifice. It's a pretty deep article and I do not have the time to summarize but if the OP really wants the answer....
(10-14-2015, 12:14 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I got this in an email, sent my responses, but am hoping you all here would answer some of these questions as well. We have to help this person get back on the right track, eh?

I am likely the least qualified on these forums to offer any insight but I'll give it my $.02 and maybe something will be helpful.
Quote:


Anyway my whole point is I wondered if you can talk a little bit. I don't believe that baptism is a requirement to heaven and if not done people go to hell.

If someone brought this concern up to me I'd likely start by going over the difference between normative means of salvation and God's ability to 'work around the rules' so to speak.  I've talked to people in the past who hear the teaching that Baptism is a requirement and then (mistakenly) think that NOBODY can be saved without it, which means all Native Americans and most people throughout the last 2000 years who never heard of Christianity had no chance at salvation.  This, of course, is not true.  ***This is not to downplay the essential nature of baptism***
Quote:I don't believe theosis is a good or appropriate goal of religion... It also reminds me of paganism, voodoo and the occult practices.

I agree with the earlier poster.  They don't seem to have a good understanding of theosis.  When I first started looking into the concept not so long ago it was a bit 'uncomfortable' for me as well.  I am far from an expert on the subject but after reading a little bit I better understand the topic and it certainly doesn't seem pagan/voodoo or occult at all.
Quote:I don't believe human sacrifice or God sacrifice is ok or what is needed for salvation.

Maybe a simple answer for this will be helpful.  God could have chosen another path of salvation for us without having his Son die on the cross.  If He choose to require Christ's sacrifice, however, it is clearly the 'most perfect' way.  Whether this means it most fully meets the perfect justice and perfect mercy needed or it means that it is the way that will draw the most souls to him, I don't know.  The reality is, however, this is how He offers salvation. Like it or not, we don't get to decide the vehicle for salvation.  We just get to choose to accept or reject His offer.
Quote:I guess I don't believe in the holy trinity any more once God becomes man- and dies he isn't anymore. God can't die only creation of gods can die.....

Christ's divinity did not die any more than our soul 'dies' at our physical death.  Christ is FULLY God and FULLY man.
Quote:My son even asked me one day if God as Jesus had a human soul in addition to being God and where did it go..... And I can't answer that. He still believes in Jesus.
Not sure I really understand this question.  Christ's divinity and his human soul are joined in his now glorified body. 
Quote:I have been turning to Judaism and some Kabbalah. I have found some peace there and with the aish website and others. I am writing because I thought you may be able to say something that makes sense somehow. It's is a big change to go from agnostic NO to TLM to veiling at mass to looking at sspx to be a non dogmatic sedevacantist.....

I'm no expert on Judiasm or Kabbalah.  I often caution people, however, that having 'some peace' or 'good feelings' is not always (or even often) an indication of truth.  When I see people jump from religion to religion like this person seems they may be doing I wonder if they are chasing the 'feeling' of finding the 'right' religion for them rather than the truth. 
Quote:And the big thing I don't like is that it seems to me the point of Catholicism isn't just the sacraments etc., but it's also the willingness to surrender your will and take on more suffering to relieve Jesus suffering. It feels like a bad ralationship where God is the victim or scape goat and then we change places to rescue the victim and become a victim and it's like a mental hold. Even the basis of referring to people as fr, mother etc who are not our parents, try's to build a bond to create a pull there and it's strong when you use those. Even communion on the tongue- you know babies stick their tongues out to nurse..... It's like there are things done in the subconscious level to get you to stay even when you encounter discord politics and things that just don't seem to fit.

The point of Catholicism is to bring souls to heaven.
God is not the victim or scape goat - He is the willing sacrifice.  Much different. 
Quote:But I do have a tie to the blessed mother and I don't understand why since by default I shouldn't find it difficult to walk away since her importance is the theotokos ....

Our Mother is not quick to let people walk away from her Son.  Let us pray that she helps bring this person back to Christ and His Church.  Ave Maria...
Quote:I guess st John of the cross and st Teresa of Avila were well aware of kaballah and used it in developing their spiritual ascent. They were from Jewish families who's converted.. Anyway I then think of the shekinah which literally means dwelling of God and it fits who mary is.

I just don't see how Jesus can be the messiah when human blood sacrifice was prohibited by the Old Testament covenant and yet we see pagan cultures have this in their systems and we see it echoed or shadowed in the New Testament. After all the sacrifice of Mass is the point of the church since Christ until he comes again. And why does he have to come again. When messiah comes there will be peace- I don't see peace in the world since Christ was here.

So theology. I don't understand some things well. I don't buy this replacement theology stuff. Maybe you might have something to say or life experience to share.

This part is out of my league to give any helpful answer. 

Hope this provides some help to someone. 

As always, If anything I've written is not in line with Church teaching I am happy to be corrected.

God Bless

Michael
(10-14-2015, 12:14 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I got this in an email, sent my responses, but am hoping you all here would answer some of these questions as well. We have to help this person get back on the right track, eh?




Anyway my whole point is I wondered if you can talk a little bit. I don't believe that baptism is a requirement to heaven and if not done people go to hell.

I don't believe theosis is a good or appropriate goal of religion... It also reminds me of paganism, voodoo and the occult practices.

I don't believe human sacrifice or God sacrifice is ok or what is needed for salvation.

I guess I don't believe in the holy trinity any more once God becomes man- and dies he isn't anymore. God can't die only creation of gods can die.....

My son even asked me one day if God as Jesus had a human soul in addition to being God and where did it go..... And I can't answer that. He still believes in Jesus.

I have been turning to Judaism and some Kabbalah. I have found some peace there and with the aish website and others. I am writing because I thought you may be able to say something that makes sense somehow. It's is a big change to go from agnostic NO to TLM to veiling at mass to looking at sspx to be a non dogmatic sedevacantist.....

And the big thing I don't like is that it seems to me the point of Catholicism isn't just the sacraments etc., but it's also the willingness to surrender your will and take on more suffering to relieve Jesus suffering. It feels like a bad ralationship where God is the victim or scape goat and then we change places to rescue the victim and become a victim and it's like a mental hold. Even the basis of referring to people as fr, mother etc who are not our parents, try's to build a bond to create a pull there and it's strong when you use those. Even communion on the tongue- you know babies stick their tongues out to nurse..... It's like there are things done in the subconscious level to get you to stay even when you encounter discord politics and things that just don't seem to fit.

But I do have a tie to the blessed mother and I don't understand why since by default I shouldn't find it difficult to walk away since her importance is the theotokos ....

I guess st John of the cross and st Teresa of Avila were well aware of kaballah and used it in developing their spiritual ascent. They were from Jewish families who's converted.. Anyway I then think of the shekinah which literally means dwelling of God and it fits who mary is.

I just don't see how Jesus can be the messiah when human blood sacrifice was prohibited by the Old Testament covenant and yet we see pagan cultures have this in their systems and we see it echoed or shadowed in the New Testament. After all the sacrifice of Mass is the point of the church since Christ until he comes again. And why does he have to come again. When messiah comes there will be peace- I don't see peace in the world since Christ was here.

So theology. I don't understand some things well. I don't buy this replacement theology stuff. Maybe you might have something to say or life experience to share.


When ever "i" get overwhelmed by overwhelming questions and when "I" think "I" should be able to understand everything,  i have found Scripture always points me in the correct direction when "myself" gets out of hand.

Meditate on these  texts  to get the correct perspective.  If 'you" can.

Ok so lets start :)

Ecclesiastes Chap 1 vs 13-18

13 Wisely I have applied myself to investigation and exploration of everything that happens under heaven. What a wearisome task God has given humanity to keep us busy!

14 I have seen everything that is done under the sun: how futile it all is, mere chasing after the wind!

15 What is twisted cannot be straightened, what is not there cannot be counted.

16 I thought to myself: I have acquired a greater stock of wisdom than anyone before me in Jerusalem. I myself have mastered every kind of wisdom and science.

17 I have applied myself to understanding philosophy and science, stupidity and folly, and I now realise that all this too is chasing after the wind.

18 Much wisdom, much grief; the more knowledge, the more sorrow.

then:  Proverbs 3:5-6


5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
    and do not rely on your own insight.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make straight your paths.

and: St. Matthew 18:3

Douay-Rheims Bible

Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(10-14-2015, 12:14 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I don't believe human sacrifice or God sacrifice is ok or what is needed for salvation.

Something I wanted to add to what I sent this person in an email:  I find that if you look at things from a psychological and sociological point of view, Catholicism works on this level as well (it works on all levels, of course, so the philosopher type might be persuaded  by different sorts of arguments). But when it comes to the Sacrifice of the Cross, ask yourself this:  in what other way could God so clearly and definitively express His love for us, His creatures, than He did by taking on flesh, allowing Himself to undergo the tortures He went through, dying for us, all in order to save us from sin and death?

Imagine a plain old human being (as opposed to a Divine Being, as Christ is) and ask yourself what would be the ultimate evidence of that person's love for you. Wouldn't dying for you be the obvious answer? Well, that's what Jesus did for us. Theology aside, His Sacrifice makes perfect psychological sense.

Also, the Old Testament absolutely and totally foretells this Sacrifice, so if you're feeling some soft spot for post-Temple Judaism (which is a radically different religion than the Old Testament religion, BTW -- and I mean RADICALLY different! It is also explicitly anti-Christ, so if you hate Jesus, then you're on the right track!), then you have to come to terms with the fact that Tanakh foretold of the coming of Christ and the means of His death. It also foretold of this through types, through foreshadowing. Sacrifices and holocausts are alllllll over the Old Testament. How could all of those possibly otherwise have been totally and once-and-for-all fulfilled but by the ultimate Sacrifice -- the Sacrifice God Himself makes, all out love for us?

Quote:

I have been turning to Judaism and some Kabbalah. I have found some peace there and with the aish website and others. I am writing because I thought you may be able to say something that makes sense somehow. It's is a big change to go from agnostic NO to TLM to veiling at mass to looking at sspx to be a non dogmatic sedevacantist.....

Just so you know:  as I said above, post-Temple Judaism is NOT the religion of the Old Testament. It is NOT the religion Christ practiced during His earthly life. It simply is not. I just posted a thread about a book that touches on this topic (also, BTW, post-Temple Judaism is also an extremely racist religion). You can read about all this sort of thing in FE's "Jewish-Catholic Relations" pages. An excerpt:


The lesson from all this must be understood, and understood very clearly and deeply: even though the Old Testament religion is usually referred to as "Judaism," the Old Testament religion is a vastly different religion than what we know today as modern Judaism. The latter merely has some things in common with the Old Testament religion because it is a broken branch thereof, in the same way that Protestantism accepts the Creed (for the most part) but changes its definitions and rejects the fullness of Christianity as passed down to us by those who've been given priestly authority in the New Covenant.

"
... and with the destruction of the Temple the Sadducees disappeared altogether, leaving the regulation of all Jewish affairs in the hands of the Pharisees.

"Henceforth Jewish life was regulated by the teachings of the Pharisees; the whole history of Judaism was reconstructed from the Pharisaic point of view, and a new aspect was given to the Sanhedrin of the past. A new chain of tradition supplanted the older, priestly tradition. Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism and the life and thought of the Jew for all the future." (Jewish Encyclopedia. Emphasis mine.)
 
This has been affirmed over and over again by honest scholars. Rabbi Stephen S. Wise, Chief Rabbi of the United States, wrote "The return from Babylon, and the adoption of the Babylonian Talmud, marks the end of Hebrewism, and the beginning of Judaism."

The Old Testament religion became Pharisaism, and then, as Rabbi Louis Finkelstein wrote:

"Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes of name, inevitable adaption of custom, and adjustment of Law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered." (Volume 1 of The Pharisees, the Sociological Background of their Faith) 

Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser summed things up most succinctly when he wrote simply, "Judaism is not the religion of the Bible." (Judaism and the Christian Predicament, 1966, p.159)

I really don't know what to say, this person really needs even basic catechesis. This is sad, I will pray for this person. Perhaps I will think of some answers for him(her/them/it?) as soon as I come out of shock.
P.S.- English pronouns are evil.
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