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http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/10/pope-fran...al-church/

Have anyone seen this? Pope F wants to change the whole Church. Well, just read it. He wants power to local episcopates--a very, very nightmarish scenario for some of us, I included. He wants a "synodal church" (never mind this F kafkaesque, totalitarian synod).

The cutest part imho is his talj of sensus fidei. He says there's no difference between the ecclesia docens and discens, and that his questionnaire to the laity was to know what the laity is teaching?? Again, just read it.

I mean, at what point will some Cardinal call him out? And look at the commentaries (and this is tame fr z blog)! People are very confused. They are becoming sspxers without realizing. Everybody, by now, is becoming a rad trad.


Btw, I doubt this has anything to do with Moscow, but its all about Berlin.
And if God is not immutable and eternal I'm not sure I want to worship this god of surprises.

Anyway, the best commentary:

Quote:When Pope Francis compares the Church and the synod, does he mean that the national bishops conferences won’t be able to review what the others discussed before it goes to the Pope in secret for a predetermined decision? Or that the bishops in their conferences will vote on issues and then the things that were voted out will be published among the teachings and rules anyway? Or that someone should start stealing the mail of bishops all over the world?

:LOL:
"The tricky thing about sensus fidei or more precisely sensus fidei fidelium is that you have to be faithful to have it. "



“If I ought to write the truth, I am of the mind that I ought to flee all meetings of bishops, because I have never seen any happy or satisfactory outcome to any council, nor one that has deterred evils more than it has occasioned their acceptance and growth.”  :grin:

St. Gregory of Nazianzus


This is nothing new. The Church in Europe has been letting the people run the show for years. Divorced people and co-habiting youths get communion as if it were their right, priests baptize children with weirdo fantasy neo-Pagan names and don't bat an eye, nor care if the parents are married or not. They'd pretty much do anything for you just to get you to come to church and participate. Which is exactly what it makes it so laughable and unappealing. They prostitute themselves to our lesser emotions, which really couldn't be more disrespectful to the soul. heck, I'm not surprised people think all priests are child-molesters, the way the behave and lure you in. By comparison many Protestants are genuine Christians who at least work on their own inward spiritual life.
So Pope Francis wants to return the Church to the ancient polity that existed for over a thousand years in the early Church? I would think if you respect Tradition and history that would be a good thing.
(10-18-2015, 07:57 AM)Silouan Wrote: [ -> ]So Pope Francis wants to return the Church to the ancient polity that existed for over a thousand years in the early Church? I would think if you respect Tradition and history that would be a good thing.

What of respecting all the Tradition and history since that time?
(10-18-2015, 08:04 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-18-2015, 07:57 AM)Silouan Wrote: [ -> ]So Pope Francis wants to return the Church to the ancient polity that existed for over a thousand years in the early Church? I would think if you respect Tradition and history that would be a good thing.

What of respecting all the Tradition and history since that time?

If changing a tradition is disrespectful to it, then all the tradition and history since that time has failed to respect the tradition and history of the first millenium, so why should we in the third respect that of the second?  Do the traditions of the second somehow command greater respect than those of the first?
(10-18-2015, 07:57 AM)Silouan Wrote: [ -> ]So Pope Francis wants to return the Church to the ancient polity that existed for over a thousand years in the early Church? I would think if you respect Tradition and history that would be a good thing.

You're going to have to do better than this. Please explain your position.

For starters let's take a look at some of the fruits of the USCCB, shall we? Communion in the hand, alter [sic] girls, etc.
How predictable is that. I knew for sure some Easterner troll would comment something along those lines--after all, this is the Traditional Orthodox Forum.

If you want to spread your errors there's already a thread for that.
I'm not sure how a more synodal Church could be a bad thing, as long as the bishops are actually faithful. The Pope could always still step in and put a stop to the worst abuses. There is no turning back on Vatican I anyway; the Pope can still have immediate jurisdiction in the life of any individual Christian anywhere in the world at any time. That will never be rolled back. If the Pope is a good one than he won't abuse this but will instead use it wisely.

I would love to see less Vatican oversight on things to be honest. Its risky but than again so is having a top down affair where the Pope and his advisers meddle in the affairs of every local Church in the world.

Vatican II and its swift implementation, not to mention the ridiculous papolatry of recent memory is the result of making the Catholic Church a top down monarchical affair with the pope as demigod at the top. Had the Church truly been synodal it would have been harder for something like Vatican II to be implemented. This is why the Orthodox do not and could not have a Vatican II.

Perhaps this would free us as laity up to align ourselves with any bishop that truly promotes the faith even if that happens to be someone affiliated with the SSPX or some sedevacantist group.

I don't know, I'd be happy if there were a bit more freedom. The dioceses and bishops that run them that are heretical will not survive anyway. Best to stop trying to bludgeon people ( the bishops included) into orthodoxy.


At this point let us find a niche somewhere where we can recieve the sacraments and live lives of prayer in communion with whoever is actually promoting and upholding the Faith. It may or may not be the pope or the average diocesan bishop.

Just find some corner somewhere where you can keep the small flame of your faith alive. These days it's impossible for me to say with any kind of certainty that the pope or any particular Catholic bishop really has the faith at all. It's every man for himself guided by his own conscience and the communion of saints, both amongst the true faithful and in heaven. There are a handful of bishops that have the faith. Get aligned with them. Oftentimes when I pray for the bishops in my morning and evening prayers I say " and for whoever has the True Faith is who I am in communion with." That's not necessarily Francis or the local bishop.

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