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Saw this article today:

http://americamagazine.org/content/dispa...-last-word

He talked about "decentralization" a lot, which reminds me of another article I read about synod fathers wanting to delegate pastoral decisions to local bishop conferences.  Aside from other things, do you think it's Pope Francis' way of avoiding schism, by letting the local churches do whatever they want basically?

If that's the case, I don't know which is worse: decentralizing and undermining the authority of Rome or formal schism.  Needless to say, it won't be ideal either way.
Well, I don't give a hoot about Germans or Belgians going into schism. But giving authority to episcopal conferences would be, for most of us, like having hundreds Francises on our back.
(10-18-2015, 06:29 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I don't give a hoot about Germans or Belgians going into schism. But giving authority to episcopal conferences would be, for most of us, like having hundreds Francises on our back.

If those Germans and Belgians were to go into schism, it would provide a "way out" for many others who want to dissent as well. On the other hand, it could provide an opportunity to appoint orthodox bishops to those places who could re-evangelize them without having to first deal with the chanceries or with a bunch of heretical priests and religious.  It could go either way, but in the end the wheat will certainly and perfectly be separated from the weeds.
I definitely think there is more than meets the eye in all this, and from our limited view it is really impossible to see why the pope might make this or that decision.

Take, for instance, the observations of a very accurate Italian journalist, Andrea Gagliarducci:

"There is at least one certainty at the end of the second week of the Synod of Bishops: the bishops, with almost no exceptions, do not like the Working Document (“Instrumentum Laboris”) that the Synod’s General Secretariat prepared as a basis for the Synod’s work. This is demonstrated by the small group (“circuli minores”) reports concerning the second part of the Working Document. The reports were published last Wednesday. Out of 13 small groups, 11 have asked for a substantial rewriting of the second part of the document. Two of the small groups went beyond this, and materially rewrote the second part. One of the small groups asked for a magisterial document in order to clarify once and for all the teaching of the Church on marriage and family."

In addition, he adds, " almost all of the small groups noticed a lack of references to Scripture or to the Church’s tradition. The same issue was raised at the 2014 Synod, and the Final Report was then completed with paragraphs including passages from the Bible. Not by chance those paragraphs were the only ones that gained a “qualified (2/3) majority” from the assembly."

This all points to something rather astonishing: it is possible we have a far better group of bishops, in general, than we think. In addition, it also suggests we may have a far better group of bishops than our crop of cardinals. That so many of our bishops would have such good sense, compared to not a few reptilian cardinals slithering around in all the important offices in Rome, suggests that 'decentralization' might actually be a way to preserve some sensus fidelium against the attacks of apostate cardinals.

Another thing: the numbers do not lie. There are growing numbers of faithful Catholics all over the world guided by faithful priests in faithful groups, associations, and orders. And they get vocations. And they get families, and actual bodies in church. All the dumb ideas are coming from places with no growth, no future, no laity attracted to the faith, no piety, no zeal. Dead wood. However, notice how much more clout, resources, position, and power the latter have, compared to all the good moms and dads out there working hard with no representation. Point? Again, a "synodal church" or a "decentralized church" will actually give greater power to the people on the ground and take some away from the rotters in purple. Yes, it would give greater authority to bishops, bad ones included. But it would give a great opportunity to the rest of us as well, and would remove the Cardinal Marxes from most of our faces.

Local bishops cannot hide in Rome. They love to see families enthusiastic for the Church. But all of our enemies are anti-family anyway, so yes, they might be cowards before a TV crew and so on, but they will help us. Because we are the only ones they have left.
The unmentioned issue here is the Holy Spirit. This may not be so bad if the pope grants doctrinal authority to the episcopal conferences then they come directly into the Ordinary Magisterium and we can count on the Holy Spirit to guide them even where they don't want to go.



C.
But isn't part of the glory of the Church is it's universality? I'm not saying it should be homogeneous, but by delegating these decisions into itty bitty pieces, aren't we on the first step to dismantling that universality?

Or maybe the last step? I'm not sure anymore.  ???
The Church already has been decentralized. Since the 1970's. Pre Vatican Ii, the Pope gave an order and it was carried out. Everyone fell in line. Take birth control, for example. Look at what happened after Humanae Vitae. There were all sorts of dissenters from the clergy down to the laity. We don't have that pre VII cohesion any longer. That's been gone a long time now.
(10-19-2015, 01:34 AM)Jacafamala Wrote: [ -> ]The Church already has been decentralized. Since the 1970's. Pre Vatican Ii, the Pope gave an order and it was carried out. Everyone fell in line. Take birth control, for example. Look at what happened after Humanae Vitae. There were all sorts of dissenters from the clergy down to the laity. We don't have that pre VII cohesion any longer. That's been gone a long time now.

You bring a good point. I was thinking that in the back of my mind, but wasn't sure enough to say it out loud.

So clearly the solution to our disunity is to further erode any cohesion that may still exist. Not.
(10-18-2015, 11:04 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]The unmentioned issue here is the Holy Spirit. This may not be so bad if the pope grants doctrinal authority to the episcopal conferences then they come directly into the Ordinary Magisterium and we can count on the Holy Spirit to guide them even where they don't want to go.
No, it's actually exactly the other way around. The pope cannot just hand down the specific charisms of the See of Peter to wherever he wants. The structure of the Church was set up by Christ himself, and the pope cannot change that. If the pope grants "doctrinal authority" (whatever that means) to the bishops conferences, we then have a level of bureaucracy  that teach but are not protected by the Holy Spirit.
It is a great satanic way of leading people astray, because people would actually think that documents published by bishops conferences are actually magisterial when in fact they are not.
^ That post above raises the follow-up question as to whether the pope's attempt to decentralize would be in contradiction with the Church's teaching on the divinely instituted nature of the hierarchy that culminates with the papacy... So, is his potential method of avoiding schism necessarily a falling into heresy?
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