FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: We officially have a heretical pope
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4
I feel that by the time Pope Francis is done, there will be some sort of renewed interest in traditionalism simply because it's the opposite of his vague ambiguity. The temporal church is starving for leadership and it will feed itself in whatever way possible. I truly hope this won't lead to a schism, that is just what Satan wants. First Satan decentralized the Eucharist, next he will attempt to remove the pope and send the church into chaos. Of course it won't work, he's done this same thing on a somewhat smaller scale multiple times before, notably with the Great Schism and the Protestant Revolt.
(11-10-2015, 10:23 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with maldon. I'm not seeing any heresy here. Weird, pointless finger-pointing with just enough plausible deniability to pass. A distinct lack of interest in defining any kind of terms. A major misunderstanding of Pelagianism (which he seems, oddly, to equate with traditional Catholicism. Which most anti-trads call Jansenism. So which is it? Do we deny free will or overly embrace free will?) 

But not outright heresy. It may well be that things will go badly on a temporal level, but thus far the church appears to still be the church.

^ This.
(11-10-2015, 10:23 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with maldon. I'm not seeing any heresy here.

Huh?  Francis is saying that doctrine can change and develop.  How is that not heresy?
(11-10-2015, 10:52 PM)AllSeasons Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2015, 10:23 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with maldon. I'm not seeing any heresy here.

Huh?  Francis is saying that doctrine can change and develop.  How is that not heresy?

Doctrine does develop. It's called the Development of Doctrine. Read the early Church fathers - their understanding of the Trinity was vague, and their conception of papacy was murky in comparison to the well developed versions of these dogmas we have today. While Church teaching never contradicts past teaching, it does develop.
(11-10-2015, 11:06 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2015, 10:52 PM)AllSeasons Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2015, 10:23 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with maldon. I'm not seeing any heresy here.

Huh?  Francis is saying that doctrine can change and develop.  How is that not heresy?

Doctrine does develop. It's called the Development of Doctrine. Read the early Church fathers - their understanding of the Trinity was vague, and their conception of papacy was murky in comparison to the well developed versions of these dogmas we have today. While Church teaching never contradicts past teaching, it does develop.

I agree that doctrine has been revealed and clarified over the ages, but the word "develop" in this context seems to indicate change from previous teachings, as opposed to just revelation and clarification.  It may be semantics, but when you take the quote in its entirety, it is what it suggests.

And if you look at social media, a.k.a. Facebook, you will see that many posters have taken this to mean that doctrine can change.  Many are celebrating.
Francis is a train wreck but he is not infallible everytime he opens his mouth. These media types and Facebook Catholics are simply being selective and running to canonize whatever the Pope says that they agree with while ignoring everything they don't . That's just how it is I guess.  It's a shallow Catholicism.

  If we know that Vatican I does not give the Pope infallibility everytime he opens his mouth than why worry? If people choose to remain shallow and take a sound bite view of Catholicism than that's their problem, not ours. Granted it'd be better if there were a Pope that was orthodox in his every word and gesture, and better if those inside and outside the Church better informed themselves of the limits of infallibility but that is not reality in the world we live in. We can't worry about what we have no control over.
This is the only forum of Catholics I know where most people don't like the pope.
(11-10-2015, 09:18 PM)AllSeasons Wrote: [ -> ]Pope Francis says Catholics must be open to change

Quote:Christian doctrine, he added, “is not a closed system incapable of generating questions, doubts, queries, but it’s alive, and able to unsettle, animate.” Doctrine, Francis said, “has a face that isn’t rigid, a body that moves and develops, it has tender flesh: that of Jesus Christ.”

http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/11/10...3Afacebook

This is most disconcerting.  What now??

Remember, Jesus promised us that the gates of Hell will not prevail. You should only take this in the context in which while the truths of the Faith are unchanging, the Church has to be open to all avenues of evangelization, to bring the Gospel to all the people.
(11-10-2015, 11:12 PM)AllSeasons Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2015, 11:06 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2015, 10:52 PM)AllSeasons Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2015, 10:23 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with maldon. I'm not seeing any heresy here.

Huh?  Francis is saying that doctrine can change and develop.  How is that not heresy?

Doctrine does develop. It's called the Development of Doctrine. Read the early Church fathers - their understanding of the Trinity was vague, and their conception of papacy was murky in comparison to the well developed versions of these dogmas we have today. While Church teaching never contradicts past teaching, it does develop.

I agree that doctrine has been revealed and clarified over the ages, but the word "develop" in this context seems to indicate change from previous teachings, as opposed to just revelation and clarification.  It may be semantics, but when you take the quote in its entirety, it is what it suggests.

And if you look at social media, a.k.a. Facebook, you will see that many posters have taken this to mean that doctrine can change.  Many are celebrating.

I agree. And I would not be at all surprised if that is the meaning he intends to convey. But, doctrine does develop, and it isn't "rigid."  Added up his words are confusing. But it is possible to read them in an orthodox way. They aren't heresy (though the overall picture would be).

It's kind of like those optical illusions where three corners don't quite make a triangle. But if you were forbidden from drawing triangles, you could still (just) get away with drawing those illusions. It is unfortunate that the pope is being unclear, and I pray that somehow clarity will emerge from this.
(11-11-2015, 12:35 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2015, 09:18 PM)AllSeasons Wrote: [ -> ]Pope Francis says Catholics must be open to change

Quote:Christian doctrine, he added, “is not a closed system incapable of generating questions, doubts, queries, but it’s alive, and able to unsettle, animate.” Doctrine, Francis said, “has a face that isn’t rigid, a body that moves and develops, it has tender flesh: that of Jesus Christ.”

http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/11/10...3Afacebook

This is most disconcerting.  What now??

Remember, Jesus promised us that the gates of Hell will not prevail. You should only take this in the context in which while the truths of the Faith are unchanging, the Church has to be open to all avenues of evangelization, to bring the Gospel to all the people.

But...as I've said before and I'll say again just because Jesus promised that " the gates of hell will not prevail" does not mean that it will always be easy to tell just exactly where the visible Church is in a given time and place.  There very well could be an antipope at some point, and it's obvious to me at least that in this time and place it's not always easy to tell where in any given place the the true Church exists or who amongst the episcopate actually holds the Faith. Gods promise to the Church remains, but it is up to us to try to discern where this Church is and who is worthy of trust in relation to it.

It's too simplistic to just believe that whoever happens to sit in the Chair of Peter, whoever the majority of the world believes to be the Pope actually is the Pope. If anything the Great Western Schism and the modern post conciliar era ought to teach us that it's not always sufficiently clear. I'm not saying Francis is not the Pope, just saying it's possible he's not.
Pages: 1 2 3 4