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Full Version: We officially have a heretical pope
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(11-10-2015, 11:06 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2015, 10:52 PM)AllSeasons Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2015, 10:23 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with maldon. I'm not seeing any heresy here.

Huh?  Francis is saying that doctrine can change and develop.  How is that not heresy?

Doctrine does develop. It's called the Development of Doctrine. Read the early Church fathers - their understanding of the Trinity was vague, and their conception of papacy was murky in comparison to the well developed versions of these dogmas we have today. While Church teaching never contradicts past teaching, it does develop.

^This.

Indeed, as Fr. Barron said last year commenting on the Synod, just like our forefathers in the faith discussed who was Jesus and the Trinity, now we discuss this new thing, sexuality, because never before have people had sex. Never in the history of humanity have people felt sinful desires and covered it in romantic language. Indeed, as one of the primates said in one of those Kafkaesque interviews of the Synod this year, this language of "loving the sinner hating the sin" is outdated, its archaic. We need to get past that. Intrinsic disordered desires?? Don't even mention it! So medieval. Nasty Thomists!

:eyeroll:

By the way, did you guys noticed how the pope changed from "this is just pastoral" to "we need to change doctrine" to "evolve"? Very scary.



(11-11-2015, 12:34 AM)randomtradguy Wrote: [ -> ]This is the only forum of Catholics I know where most people don't like the pope.

His confusing, easily-manipulated way of speaking makes things very difficult for those of us who know and love the Catholic Faith and who love the Holy Fathee.  Before, we could often refer to papal statements to back up church teaching. Now, often times, we must work against them. Often times, the best we can do is say that he has no authority to change doctrine, and that his random statements are not official.

The Catholics here are generally faithful, orthodox Catholics who desperately want to love the Pope and back him up 100%.  We also remember well that we are soldiers of Christ, not agents of Pope Francis.  Pope Francis does not seem to care that he is sowing confusion in spite of the need for clarity.  Many other Catholics know this well, but are not bold enough to say it.  We are bold enough to say it here, as people are on other traditional Catholic forums and blogs. What sets FishEaters apart from many of those is that this frustration is expressed clearly and openly here but without the poison.
(11-11-2015, 12:34 AM)randomtradguy Wrote: [ -> ]This is the only forum of Catholics I know where most people don't like the pope.

I personally like Francis a lot as a person but I don't like him as a Pope. He seems less of a leader more like a motivational speaker. Had the situation been different things might have played out better, but in the present crisis of the church he does very little to help the overall situation of the church. He focuses mainly on the humanitarian and ecological when what he really needs to focus on is the fact that most Catholics today are not very Catholic anymore.
(11-10-2015, 10:23 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with maldon. I'm not seeing any heresy here. Weird, pointless finger-pointing with just enough plausible deniability to pass. A distinct lack of interest in defining any kind of terms. A major misunderstanding of Pelagianism (which he seems, oddly, to equate with traditional Catholicism. Which most anti-trads call Jansenism. So which is it? Do we deny free will or overly embrace free will?) 

But not outright heresy. It may well be that things will go badly on a temporal level, but thus far the church appears to still be the church.

His understanding of Gnosticism is curious, too. Of course, most people use the label in a way I don't really understand. Too many Coptic classes reading *actual* Gnostics, I guess!
(11-11-2015, 06:08 PM)Dominicus Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-11-2015, 12:34 AM)randomtradguy Wrote: [ -> ]This is the only forum of Catholics I know where most people don't like the pope.

I personally like Francis a lot as a person but I don't like him as a Pope. He seems less of a leader more like a motivational speaker. Had the situation been different things might have played out better, but in the present crisis of the church he does very little to help the overall situation of the church. He focuses mainly on the humanitarian and ecological when what he really needs to focus on is the fact that most Catholics today are not very Catholic anymore.

I think I'd like Francis as a person too. I don't think he would like me, though  :grin:
Well, I talked to a priest friend of mine, and he didn't think what Francis said was heretical.  He sent me a long email of explanations, though I still have my concerns.  That said, I do sincerely hope that we do not have a heretical pope.
CaptCrunch73 Wrote:This is an interesting topic. I am trying to weed through my shiny new copy of Denzinger to see what it says but in the mean time found this article. BTW I am NOT trying to prove Pope Francis to be a heretic or not I just want to understand what we, as Catholics, should believe. The sermons and documents for the last 50 years do lend themselves to clarity so just need to dig in and let all the surrounding chaos go.

Development of Doctrine or Change in Teaching?

The following two paragraphs give a decent summary of doctrine being able to develop but also the parameters, so to speak, of how it can develop.

"The issue is not whether doctrines can develop. For instance, Gerhard Cardinal Müller, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, is not arguing against doctrinal development, as some of his critics have implied. In his just published book, The Hope of the Family (Ignatius, 2014), he affirms that “dogma develops and is evolving.” Yet, he rightly sees that doctrinal development has to be homogeneous with the essential principles of the teaching. Thus, doctrinal development, according to Müller, cannot be legitimate when it occurs “in a way that contradicts basic principles [of the teaching] [. . .] that would conclude or affirm the contrary.” This important point has been obscured or even lost in the recent discussion about doctrinal development. "

"But this point has not been lost in the Church’s teaching regarding doctrinal development. This teaching has its roots in the work of the fifth century monk, Vincent of Lérins (see Commonitórium primum, 23). Vincent wrote: “Therefore, let there be growth and abundant progress in understanding, knowledge, and wisdom, in each and all, in individuals and in the whole Church, at all times and in the progress of ages, but only with the proper limits, i.e., within the same dogma, the same meaning, the same judgment [eodem sensu eademque sententia].”"

CaptCrunch73 Wrote:The author later goes on to give his impression of Pope Francis

" So, how does Pope Francis stand with respect to the question of doctrinal development? What is his response to the question as to how we can allow for legitimate pluralism and authentic diversity within a fundamental doctrinal unity? Briefly put, he is a Lérinian. He writes (in On Heaven and Earth, a work co-authored with Rabbi Skorka): “In the third and fourth centuries the revealed truths of faith were theologically formulated and transmitted as our nonnegotiable inheritance.” He is quick to add, however:

That does not mean that throughout history, through study and investigation, other insights were not discovered about these truths: such as what Christ is like, or how to configure the Church, or how and what should be true Christian conduct, or what are the commandments. All of these are enriched by these new explanations. There are things that are debatable, but—I repeat—this inheritance is not negotiable. The content of a religious faith [fides quae creditor] is capable of being deepened through human thought, but when that deepening is at odds with the inheritance, it is a heresy. "

CaptCrunch73 Wrote:These types of discussions gives me fits when trying to determine whether Pope Francis is a heretic or not, they ruin me spiritually. However they do provide opportunities to dig into things, like Denzinger and papal encyclicals, that I never would even know existing. For that I am thankful for the current chaos in the church while also wishing all this digging was unneccesary.

Also on FE there another thread about this topic that shows Harvesting the Fruit of Vatican II's (Louie Verrichio) take on the same sermon. In the comments section there is a response to someone that asked him directly what to do from a priest, they are wise words for these times.

"Fr Robert Mann SCJ November 10, 2015

Dear My2Cents,
There is no easy answer because the authority for the most part is in the hands of a modernist and Conciliarist hierarchy utterly dedicated to the ongoing revolution in its broad strokes. Barring a miracle I really can’t see anyone on the horizon at that level who is going take the fight all the way. Hopefully I’m wrong. We really need a warrior Pope who is holy, orthodox and brave, who will attend to the running sores inflicted by Vatican II and aspects of the later Magisterium and post-Conciliar disciplines that furthered the decline.

At a personal level I would say, have as little to do with the Novus Ordo in as far as that is possible for you. I know that is such a difficulty because in vast swathes of the Church its all there is. So I would minimise my connections with it and if possible attend TLM. I would recommend studying the teaching of the pre-Conciliar Popes, they are clear, precise and utterly Catholic in their thinking and writing unlike the Vatican 2 Popes and their tortured verbose encyclicals.
But above all we have to be heroically patient and realise that it is the Lord’s battle and the victory will be His but it may come in a way and manner we least expect. In the meantime hold to the ancient Faith, and be steadfast in prayer. All this is permitted by God for his own kind purposes but be assured He will never abandon his Church just as she can never defect from Him. I hope that is some help but will be a time of real tribulation.


I don't think we should pin heresy on him unless he explicitly denies an important Catholic doctrine or dogma. It's a heavy charge to pin on anyone given its grave matter and attached censure for those who meet the requirements for it, especially the Pope. That said, I have been very concerned, especially since the Synod began stirring up controversy, about the direction the hierarchy is going. To reference a video I watched relatively recently, it's as though that even what some of the more recent Popes since Vatican II isn't modern enough and needs to be changed. At this point, I feel like we need either divine intervention to straighten out the hierarchy or a very brave person or people to stand up and say that we need to get back to basics and stop trying to gradually alter teaching, such as what we've seen with the Synod.

I greatly admire Pope Francis' outreach to the poor, hungry, and homeless. He does beautiful work in that regard. I just wish he would be more clear and direct when it comes to certain teachings. I also find his statements downplaying or discouraging proselytism very peculiar.
He may not be a heretic, but he is at least not very bright and less than a theological lightweight. His definition of Pelagianism is incorrect. It seems he just changes meanings of words to suit his agenda.
(11-11-2015, 12:34 AM)randomtradguy Wrote: [ -> ]This is the only forum of Catholics I know where most people don't like the pope.

There are other Catholic forums who probably like him even less.
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