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While we're on the topic of things the Pope said today...

Quote:Pope Francis says Trump's views on immigration 'not Christian'



Pope Francis said Thursday that Donald Trump is "not Christian" if he intends to build a wall along the U.S.-Mexican border. Trump immediately fired back, saying it is disgraceful for a religious leader to question a person's faith.

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Trump, a leading U.S. Republican presidential candidate, has promised to build a wall along the Mexican border from Texas to California and expel 11 million people who are in the country illegally if elected president.

The Pope's comments en route home from Mexico came hours after he prayed at the Mexico-U.S. border for people who died trying to reach the United States.
USA-ELECTION/TRUMP

U.S. Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump greets members of the Sun City Republicans on Thursday after speaking at their gated retirement community in Bluffton, South Carolina. (Jonathan Ernst/Reuters)

"A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian," Francis said. "This is not in the Gospel."

Not having heard Trump's border plans independently, Francis said he'd "give him the benefit of the doubt." But he added: "I'd just say that this man is not Christian if he said it this way."

Texas Senator Ted Cruz, another Republican presidential contender, has also supported building a border wall, and joked that he will make Trump pay for it.

Trump, a Presbyterian, last week criticized Francis' plans to pray at the border. He said the move was ill-informed and showed Francis to be a political figure being exploited by the Mexican government.

"I don't think he understands the danger of the open border that we have with Mexico," Trump said in an interview with Fox News. "I think Mexico got him to do it because they want to keep the border just the way it is. They're making a fortune, and we're losing."

On Thursday, he responded to the Pope's comments during a campaign stop in Kiawah Island, S.C.

"No leader, especially a religious leader, should have the right to question another man's religion or faith," he said. "They are using the Pope as a pawn and they should be ashamed of themselves for doing so, especially when so many lives are involved and when illegal immigration is so rampant."

He also said the Mexican government has disparaged him to the Pope and separately invoked the Islamic State group, saying that if it attacks the Vatican, "I can promise you that the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president because this would not have happened."

Asked if he felt he was being used as a pawn of Mexico, Francis said he didn't know.

"I leave that judgment to you, the people."

But he seemed quite pleased to hear that Trump had called him a "political" figure, noting that Aristotle had described the human being as a "political animal."
Zika crisis

Francis also suggested that women threatened with the Zika virus could use artificial contraception, saying there's a clear moral difference between aborting a fetus and preventing a pregnancy.

Francis was asked if abortion or birth control could be considered a "lesser evil," when confronting the Zika crisis in Brazil, where some babies have been born with abnormally small heads to Zika-infected mothers.

The explosion of Zika cases has prompted some governments in Latin America to urge women to avoid getting pregnant and has fueled calls from abortion rights groups to loosen the strict anti-abortion laws in the overwhelmingly Catholic region.

    Zika link to birth defect: 'guilty until proven innocent,' WHO says
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But Francis excluded abortion absolutely from the debate.

"Abortion isn't a lesser evil, it's a crime," he told reporters. "Taking one life to save another, that's what the Mafia does. It's a crime. It's an absolute evil."

Francis, however, drew a parallel to the decision taken by Pope Paul VI in the 1960s to approve giving nuns in Belgian Congo artificial contraception to prevent pregnancies because they were being systematically raped.

Abortion "is an evil in and of itself, but it is not a religious evil at its root, no? It's a human evil," he said. "On the other hand, avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil. In certain cases, as in this one (Zika), such as the one I mentioned of Blessed Paul VI, it was clear."
With files from Reuters
Ooops... I put this in the wrong sub! Vox, can you please move it?
I'm not sure what to make of this, but it's nice to see Pope Francis taking a firm stand on something and stating it clearly. I am not a fan of Trump and his "politics", I am certain there are far better ways to prevent these illegal immigrants, though I do not claim to know how. And of course the Pope has the right to question his heretical faith.

With the Zika virus, I really have no clue. I can understand Francis' position on the matter considering the effects the virus has, as it is permissible to withold conception in certain cases such as this. But does it warrant full contraception?
We discussed this over on another forum the full quote wasn't the same as the media is making it seem.

I like trump for one reason and that is because he is shifting the Overton window and negating PC. But as a counter revolutionary, monarchist and reactionary i despise populist governments, the right to vote and demagogues with a passion. Trump is a means to an ends. I can see a positive aspect of him losing the election would cause the remaining far right to become disillusioned with Democracy, realize it's a joke and join the ranks of Monarchist like myself. That's just my political theory.


On topic however. The quote was

"A person who thinks ONLY about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel, [emphasis added]”

This seems to imply something different then what people are claiming.


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(02-18-2016, 05:28 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: [ -> ]"A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian," Francis said. "This is not in the Gospel."

Not having heard Trump's border plans independently, Francis said he'd "give him the benefit of the doubt." But he added: "I'd just say that this man is not Christian if he said it this way."

What happened to "who am I to judge?" Out da window when it comes to a man with common sense, who knows that diversity+proximity=low trust societies, social ills, and war -- especially when it comes to Islam, a religion that's warred its way in great waves of bloody terror over the countries it now occupies.

The Tower of Babel incident led us to have different languages, cultures, and ways of being. That's the reality. Some cultures just don't mix with others, Islam being foremost among them. And no matter which culture you're living in, your loyalty is to your family, kinsmen, and fellow citizens/subjects, in that order, before it is to those outside of those groups. If the Pope wants to take food out of the mouth of my grandson, to take his future ability to have a job while living in a society that is homogeneous enough to be peaceful and marked by high trust, then I reject what he's saying. And I won't have anyone pitting my feelings of protectiveness for my family against my rightful claims to Catholicity. This Pope's political jabberings do not the Magisterium make.

The Gospel says that we are to love each other. We can help the hungry or homeless people of all cultural and religious groups without allowing them to destroy the societies we've built. Care packages, not invasion!

ETA: In addition to care packages, I'll add Doctors Without Borders, the Peace Corps, those groups that go to places to build housing, mission work like my big brother is engaged in as a doctor in Honduras, offering his services for free to the poor there, etc. My point: We ARE our brother's keeper, we are to love our neighbors -- and the parable of the Good Samaritan shows us that ALL men are our neighbors. We DO owe to everyone what we can give to them that would truly help them (while not harming our families, kinsmen, and compatriots) -- most of all, we owe them the Gospel.  But we do no one any good if we kill ourselves or harm our families and countrymen in the process of helping. And for me, no one but God Himself comes before my grandson. IOW, there is no reason for anyone to think that rejecting massive amounts of immigration, or any immigration from certain groups (e.g., Muslims), means rejecting charity or ignoring the Gospel and the Two Great Commandments. That is a lie. It's a false dichotomy.

I put "truly" in quotes above because it's often so that Western aid keeps the poor poor. For ex., see this old thread I posted: "For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!"
DeoDuce and Vox, I think both of you make very good points. I certainly do not agree to just let strangers run us out of our own country but I think there must be a better way than what Trump proposes.

On a side note, it would seem that the rising population of Hispanic people in the United States would cause an increase in Catholicism on a general scale as most Catholics are Hispanic these days.
(02-18-2016, 08:09 PM)Dominicus Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure what to make of this, but it's nice to see Pope Francis taking a firm stand on something and stating it clearly. I am not a fan of Trump and his "politics", I am certain there are far better ways to prevent these illegal immigrants, though I do not claim to know how. And of course the Pope has the right to question his heretical faith.

While we're supposed to practise charity, that doesn't mean we have to allow any homeless person we encounter to stay at our home. Especially if we have a family to protect. It's hardly charitable to one's wife and children to allow a total stranger to live in your home and who might be completely harmless, but if you're wrong, there's a higher-than-average chance that someone's getting raped or killed. Even if that's only a tiny percentage of homeless people who commit violent crimes, we're not required to take the chance. Why wouldn't the same rule apply to one's country, and why shouldn't it be allowed to protect its own culture rather than having another imposed upon it? Immigration laws are not unchristian - a state has a duty to look out for its own people first.

Whether a wall is best or not is a judgment for the secular authorities to make. The Church does not demand a theocracy, where the civil government is run by the Church or by clerics. The Church does teach separation of Church and State, properly understood, where the temporal power is separate from the spiritual, but should be informed by it and should promote the proper worship of God and the proper care of one's fellow man. That's not the Pope's call to make, especially when he's just wrong in his premise that a country should accept any and all people who want to come there.

(02-18-2016, 08:09 PM)Dominicus Wrote: [ -> ]With the Zika virus, I really have no clue. I can understand Francis' position on the matter considering the effects the virus has, as it is permissible to withold conception in certain cases such as this. But does it warrant full contraception?

It's permissible to not have sex. Contraception to prevent conception is never permitted, particularly when one is intending to have sex. But in today's culture, "don't have sex" can't possibly be an option, can it?
There is a lot about Trump that contradicts Christianity. The first commandment says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." 
(02-18-2016, 11:31 PM)Dominicus Wrote: [ -> ]DeoDuce and Vox, I think both of you make very good points. I certainly do not agree to just let strangers run us out of our own country but I think there must be a better way than what Trump proposes.

On a side note, it would seem that the rising population of Hispanic people in the United States would cause an increase in Catholicism on a general scale as most Catholics are Hispanic these days.

The answers to Mexico's problems are to undo NAFTA, which was pushed on us and them by the same people who are pushing for Muslim immigration into Europe, and for them to clean up the rampant corruption that goes on there.

There is more to the immigration issue than religion; there are also the matters of jobs (which are already scarce given the sell-out of corporate America, in part due to overregulation and hyper-taxation), the welfare state (from which Hispanic immigrants take out more than they put in), education costs, healthcare costs, etc. There's also the matter of illegal vs. legal immigration. The former is, well, illegal and not right, and the latter should be done with prudence, ensuring that the newly migrated populations assimilate before more are moved in, preventing any sense of dual cultures with two different languages going on, etc., which leads to a low-trust society and strife. Too much immigration at one time, especially with a population that doesn't want to assimilate, is not healthy for the host society. Finally, there's the matter of the Democratic Party latching on to immigrants and playing identity politics with them, using them against the EED populations that are already here -- and coupling all that identity stuff with abortion, gay "marriage," etc.

But even as to religion, just a tiny bit of over half of Latino immigrants remain Catholic. See also this article from NCROnline. They come up here and turn Prot. For the sake of their souls, they should stay in Mexico.
(02-19-2016, 12:35 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]There is a lot about Trump that contradicts Christianity. The first commandment says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Is someone worshiping Trump as a god or something?
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