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There's been a number of threads recently attempting (to one degree or another) to "square the circle" of the NOM. 

Personally, while I do believe that the NOM is valid, I also am convinced that it's a poor substitute for the TLM.  That's not simply a statement of preference, it's an objective fact that is expressed in the sad state of the greater part of Christendom: crashing mass attendance, evaporating vocations...everywhere but Africa (and I think that this is actually more proof of the premise, since Africa is vastly more orthodox than anywhere else in Christendom).

Even so, isn't it fantasy to ignore the fact that the vast majority of Catholics (through no fault of their own) have no experience whatsoever with the TLM?  How can we expect God to reset the liturgical clock to a generation ago?  I can't see a path where the NOM is simply outlawed...

What would it take to make the NOM an organic extension of the TLM?  Scraping the whole thing and simply offering the TLM in the vernacular? Dropping the words of consecration from the TLM into the NOM?  Or...?
If anything Africans are proof positive that one can be perfectly orthodox without the 1962 Missal or some variant of it. The core doctrines and pieties that make up Latin Rite Catholicism are not necessarily dependent on having the Latin Mass. If anything Africans are more open to the supernatural and sacramental imagination in an unaffected unselfconscious way than modern westerners, which makes them soak up ideas like the cult of the saints, the Real Presence and spiritual warfare that much easier.

The Greek Orthodox had success bringing the full Athonite Typicon to Zaire! If they can do it so can Catholics, as the Athonite Typicon is exclusively monastic and pretty hardcore. 

I think there have been signs that the NOM can be beefed up by exposure to the TLM and its culture. Around here the NOM church the FSSP uses is ultra orthodox, and some of it no doubt stems from exposure to the TLM, including a host of relics, statuary and an altar rail. .

At the church right near me the Propers are used instead of hymns, the full LOTH is prayed daily, there is always a holy hour on Mondays after the weekday Mass, and confession 5 days a week that you have to get there early just to get a chance! This church has zero exposure to the TLM, although I think after Summorum Pontificum it became more acceptable to take back some of the things that had fallen into disuse.

In general I do not share the optimism of some that the TLM will eventually become the norm again,or that Vatican II will be overturned. I could be wrong,but I don't think I am. The Church back pedaling on something that has, for better or worse, become enshrined into the very lifeblood, documents and life of the Church and it's members is not going away. The best realistic scenario i think will be the Pauline Mass taking on more solemnity, more access to the older rites for those attached to them, and a pruning of the options from the new.  This process will take time--- lots of time--- but it'll happen.


(03-30-2016, 05:13 PM)dcmaccabees Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, while I do believe that the NOM is valid, I also am convinced that it's a poor substitute for the TLM. 

I concur.

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I tend to share Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's view that the Holy Church will become smaller, but more devout and pious for many reasons. I see the NO Mass as here to stay, but I think it will become more reverent; getting rid of the guitars, the "folk/Woodstock Masses," more people dressing appropriately just for starters. The folks that will carry the torch of the Faith aren't the ones showing up in Birkenstocks or halter tops flashing their lumbar tramp stamp. Heck I could also see the NO being offered in Latin. On a similar note, I can definitely see how the TLM would catch on with the types I just described. I can definitely see the TLM making a resurgence, although I think the parishes it's offered in while be smaller and more spread out geographically.
We have to recognize the sad fact that vast majority of Catholics not only systematically disobey the Church in its moral teachings but also don't even believe in them. There's also some sad statistics about the disbelieve in basic dogma—real presence, resurrection, virgin birth, divinity of Christ and so on.

So we kinda have to ask that dreadful question, are they really Catholic ? Isn't that that silent apostasy that JPII spoke of ?

Of course the orthodox population is not completely distributed over traditionalist, but its undeniable that traditionalist tend to be more orthodox. This is a natural consequence of the way things are today : the TLM is hidden. One has to look for it, and one who is searching for it is generally a person really interested in the Catholic religion, and this person is naturally attracted to the dignity of the TLM, its transcendental character, its devotion and respect for the Eucharistic Jesus (the major reason I'm now a TLM exclusive guy is precisely because I simply can't partake of the disrespectful communion in the hand and other abuses). Even today, from what I see (so, anecdotal), a great number of persons frequenting the TLM are first generation.
We might start to see some of the typical pre-VII problems Catholic families had (plus the modern temptations, which are diabolically strong), as kids grow up. But the families are traditional, in every sense of the word, so that's an advantage over the cavalier, « light Catholicism » (this is literally what a NO friend of mine said he was looking for when searching the school for his child).

So I suspect there will still be a remnant, small as it may be, that is orthodox in every sense of the word—by the grace of God, surely. It really doesn't bother me if we're a minority, except that so many people are not even aware of the Liturgy. They were robbed of their patrimony. And its no surprise some might commit schism or even apostatize, because, frankly, if all you see is absurd homo-heretic Masses and pope Francis, Orthodoxy will look pretty much the only thing left if Christianity is true at all.
This minority might contain the vast majority of the creative minority BXVI spoke of that Sir mentioned above. And I don't see any immediate way of not being a minority besides taking the hard road of evangelism.
But for God nothing is impossible. Maybe tomorrow Francis dies and a rad trad Eastern European is elected pope (say, maybe pope Francis died in a Muslim attack that killed many liberal Cardinals) and abolishes the NOM forever. Then the non-Catholic Catholics will come out as Episcopalians, the Church will assume its actual size and we can proceed.

Its also good to keep perspective, we should note that the mode of being of the NOM is very different from that of the TLM : the NOM are a series of experiments that somehow became the most fashionable thing ever (probably because the most popular guy, the pope, not only celebrated it but in some cases went out of his way to impose it). The TLM, on the other hand, is the Mass. Its not a series of experiments that might change tomorrow. The NOM could easily be abolished by a stroke of the pen (and sneaky politicking).
Africa has many problems in their churches , many priests have a wife and the bishop ignores it. There was an article in the last FSSP North American bulletin from Africa and they quoted what Africa was like in the "bad" old days pre-Vatican 2 and now , this elderly missionary who was there then and returned today spoke of what a disaster the guitar strummers after Vatican 2 did to the church in Africa. Write to the FSSP in North America for the article its either the January  or February 2016 edition, maybe March cant remember.
Honestly, I don't think its going to look good unless those who think Catholicism is a nationality check out. As someone said above, so many have disdain for what the Church teaches that you really have to wonder why they don't just move on to a protestant denomination that affirms their every whimsical feeling. Sacrifice is the last thing people want to hear these days and you really cant have a Church without it. I think the mass will become a museum exhibit and that is about it.
(03-30-2016, 07:21 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]We have to recognize the sad fact that vast majority of Catholics not only systematically disobey the Church in its moral teachings but also don't even believe in them. There's also some sad statistics about the disbelieve in basic dogma—real presence, resurrection, virgin birth, divinity of Christ and so on.

So we kinda have to ask that dreadful question, are they really Catholic ? Isn't that that silent apostasy that JPII spoke of ?

Of course the orthodox population is not completely distributed over traditionalist, but its undeniable that traditionalist tend to be more orthodox. This is a natural consequence of the way things are today : the TLM is hidden. One has to look for it, and one who is searching for it is generally a person really interested in the Catholic religion, and this person is naturally attracted to the dignity of the TLM, its transcendental character, its devotion and respect for the Eucharistic Jesus (the major reason I'm now a TLM exclusive guy is precisely because I simply can't partake of the disrespectful communion in the hand and other abuses). Even today, from what I see (so, anecdotal), a great number of persons frequenting the TLM are first generation.
We might start to see some of the typical pre-VII problems Catholic families had (plus the modern temptations, which are diabolically strong), as kids grow up. But the families are traditional, in every sense of the word, so that's an advantage over the cavalier, « light Catholicism » (this is literally what a NO friend of mine said he was looking for when searching the school for his child).

So I suspect there will still be a remnant, small as it may be, that is orthodox in every sense of the word—by the grace of God, surely. It really doesn't bother me if we're a minority, except that so many people are not even aware of the Liturgy. They were robbed of their patrimony. And its no surprise some might commit schism or even apostatize, because, frankly, if all you see is absurd homo-heretic Masses and pope Francis, Orthodoxy will look pretty much the only thing left if Christianity is true at all.
This minority might contain the vast majority of the creative minority BXVI spoke of that Sir mentioned above. And I don't see any immediate way of not being a minority besides taking the hard road of evangelism.
But for God nothing is impossible. Maybe tomorrow Francis dies and a rad trad Eastern European is elected pope (say, maybe pope Francis died in a Muslim attack that killed many liberal Cardinals) and abolishes the NOM forever. Then the non-Catholic Catholics will come out as Episcopalians, the Church will assume its actual size and we can proceed.

Its also good to keep perspective, we should note that the mode of being of the NOM is very different from that of the TLM : the NOM are a series of experiments that somehow became the most fashionable thing ever (probably because the most popular guy, the pope, not only celebrated it but in some cases went out of his way to impose it). The TLM, on the other hand, is the Mass. Its not a series of experiments that might change tomorrow. The NOM could easily be abolished by a stroke of the pen (and sneaky politicking).

Good and interesting points. I think the people you described in your first paragraph are type that will fall away fro the Church. Seeds on rocky soil, so to speak. To build on what I posted earlier, it wouldn't surprise me at all if currently conservative NO Catholics, mostly who haven't experienced the TLM, became more conservative/traditional and started asking for the Tridentine Mass.
(03-30-2016, 07:25 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ]Africa has many problems in their churches , many priests have a wife and the bishop ignores it. There was an article in the last FSSP North American bulletin from Africa and they quoted what Africa was like in the "bad" old days pre-Vatican 2 and now , this elderly missionary who was there then and returned today spoke of what a disaster the guitar strummers after Vatican 2 did to the church in Africa. Write to the FSSP in North America for the article its either the January  or February 2016 edition, maybe March cant remember.

This is similar to my understanding from various SSPX priests who have been in Africa.

There are many good orthodox people, but the culture is highly built on tribes and community, so whatever the community or tribe believes, if you buck the trend you quickly become an outcast.

That works for the good when you have a good priest and bishop teaching good morals and doctrine, and the liturgy is really almost a secondary thing in such cases, because for any of us who have seen the Novus Ordo done "well" the deficiencies are more on the subtle theological level when you reinforce good morals and doctrine from the pulpit.

It is equally disastrous if the bishop and priest are not orthodox or morally sound. The community follows them either way

The experience of traditionalist Africans is that in order to come to the older liturgy (and perhaps escape the bad doctrine and morals) they have to leave their community, and they become outcasts at least on some level.

All of that could be summarized in saying that in a sense what saves the African Church from falling apart as quickly as in the rest of the West is what kept the American Church going in the 1950s. There was a social structure which permitted the reinforcement of good doctrine and morals without people needing to think about it or fight for it themselves. But the problem with this is that if the structure could be perverted or destroyed, the Church crumbles almost naturally.

In short, one can certainly be a good Catholic and save one's soul without the 1962 liturgy, but it is not because of the Novus Ordo, but despite it, that one remains a good Catholic.

For the African Church, it is not because of the Novus Ordo, but despite it, and thanks to the social structure which allows some priests and bishops to maintain good morals and doctrine, that it is surviving better than the rest of the West.
I don't see drastic change within a generation, barring some cataclysmic event. The Church operates on the century-like time scale. When it has tried to move more quickly (e.g. Vatican II and the new liturgy), chaos ensues.

Much will depend on to what extent the more liberal wing of the Church does. I think it probably eventually falls off into schism and creates a 1969-style woman-ordaining social justice league, which eventually just drops the whole religious wallpaper. Perhaps this makes me think this is what the LCWR and Cardinal Kasper will eventually become. Fortunately, most of these liberals used to live in 1969.

Where I think we will end in a generation, or perhaps two as regards Mass is the "unification" of the two "rites". The more conservative the Church the more likely that we return to one rite which is essentially what the traditional rite looked like in 1965. Effectively the 1962 Missal translated and celebrated at least with significant parts in the vernacular (as an option). Certain parts might be removed as was done in 1964, but the greatest difficulty with just replacing the Novus Ordo with the older rite is the Latin. Any other difficulty falls on the level of rubrical changes.

This, I think could be sold a greater part of the Church without much difficulty, provided the most liberal wing had separated themselves or died out.

Else, everything stays like it is. The traditional groups won't jump on board a "reform of the reform" unless it were just the 1962 rite in the vernacular, and if not, there is little reason to change much in the Novus Ordo, since the conservative Catholics are quite fine with it.
Magister, are you saying, in essence, that there is no target audience for the "reform of the reform" since the neo-Catholics and liberals are quite fine with the Novus Ordo and its options and the traditionalists are not going to back down from the traditional Mass in Latin? I think you're right. And that's why I don't see any changes in the Mass a generation from now. There will still be two Rites -- I do expect that more and more people will recognize the superiority of the traditional Latin Rite and select their parishes accordingly.
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