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Full Version: Debate EENS - Mark Shea vs. Chris Ferrara
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When you have time, watch this debate. It was great.



I think the takeaway part of this debate is how Chris handled the person dying of AIDS. That's all I'll say so I don't provide any spoilers, but that is a touching story, and I do believe he won the debate.
I can't stomach Mark Shea or any of the whole Patheos crowd.  One writer argued that the Latin Mass might not be valid because they don't understand what they're saying.  Another one complained about how things really aren't so great in Lincoln Nebraska because they don't have permanent deacons.  There are also plenty of other articles that talk about how the Latin Mass really isn't all that great.  Catholic neo-conservatism has no foundation in church history, tradition, or even scripture, but it seems to be commonplace at Patheos.
(05-18-2016, 06:19 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: [ -> ]I can't stomach Mark Shea or any of the whole Patheos crowd.  One writer argued that the Latin Mass might not be valid because they don't understand what they're saying.

That statement is so telling. Mass isn't about us, it's about God.

I wonder how these people feel about speaking in tongues.

(05-18-2016, 06:19 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: [ -> ]Another one complained about how things really aren't so great in Lincoln Nebraska because they don't have permanent deacons. 

Oh? Is that the benchmark for healthy dioceses? Who knew?

Maybe there's no permanent deacons because they're silly and unnecessary there.

(05-18-2016, 06:19 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: [ -> ]There are also plenty of other articles that talk about how the Latin Mass really isn't all that great.  Catholic neo-conservatism has no foundation in church history, tradition, or even scripture, but it seems to be commonplace at Patheos.

There's lots of things about the Church these days that has no foundation in church history, tradition or even scripture, but that doesn't appear to be stopping anyone. sad
(05-18-2016, 06:19 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: [ -> ]I can't stomach Mark Shea or any of the whole Patheos crowd. 
I don't want to point a finger at Mark Shea, but when he speaks, at times I feel this undercurrent of sarcasm or condescension.
There was another video posted by AOTM. It was Michael Voris vs. Mark Shea. It was good as well. I am not too happy about Michael's attacks on SSPX, but that is aside the point.

Anyway, Mark Shea said something funny...A friend of his said that Mark would say the same thing that Chesterton once did when the topic comes up, "What's wrong with the world? - I am." Mark says, "Finally, Michael would say, 'Alas, we agree!'"
From a soul in Purgatory;

Are many Protestants saved?

By the mercy of God a certain number of Protestants are saved, but their Purgatory is for many long and rigorous. It is true they have not abused grace like many Catholics, but neither have they had the marvelous graces of the sacraments and the other helps of the true religion, thus their expiation in Purgatory is prolonged.
(05-20-2016, 12:26 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]From a soul in Purgatory;

Are many Protestants saved?

By the mercy of God a certain number of Protestants are saved, but their Purgatory is for many long and rigorous. It is true they have not abused grace like many Catholics, but neither have they had the marvelous graces of the sacraments and the other helps of the true religion, thus their expiation in Purgatory is prolonged.

What you are quoting here is from a private revelation, which is not part of the Sacred Deposit of Doctrine , especially when it vitiates against defined dogma.

The only way the above could be accepted is if it was due to a lack of precision in language.  As if the Protestants being referred to above lived their lives as Protestants but had a conversion of heart and renounced their errors, perhaps known only to God, before their deaths.  A heretic can't magically become a Catholic after death.

Or, if the ostensible Protestant was a child below the age of reason, having been validly baptized and not yet acceded to his sect's heresies (which would make him actually a Catholic). 

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:“Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.

The Catholic Church is not Protestantism Plus- the five star buffet compared to the two star buffet; it's sacraments and doctrine being very helpful but not actually necessary.

As Pope Leo XII states in Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824: “It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”



Put more simply, it is possible for a Protestant to be saved despite his false beliefs if he dies in a state of grace, which would require an act of perfect contrition since such a person would not have his sins forgiven in the normal way through the sacrament of confession.
(05-20-2016, 09:31 AM)ermy_law Wrote: [ -> ]Put more simply, it is possible for a Protestant to be saved despite his false beliefs if he dies in a state of grace, which would require an act of perfect contrition since such a person would not have his sins forgiven in the normal way through the sacrament of confession.

The only thing I would say about this is that it seems impossible for such a person to be in a state of grace as the perfect act of contrition would also have to include sins against the Faith.  Incidentally, almost all Protestants, as part of their belief, dont believe committing sins cut themselves off from salvation. Protestants cannot be saved as Protestants.

"When we say that faith is necessary for the remission of sins, we mean to speak of the Catholic faith, not heretical faith . . . Without the habit of this faith, no man is justified."

------St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

I disagree strongly with the proposition of Archbishop Lefebvre and others that people can be saved in their false religions and beliefs but not by their false religions and beliefs. 

"The first requirement of salvation is to keep to the standard of the true faith."------Pope Adrian II

The Protestant is lacking the formal supernatural motive of Faith, which is to believe what is proposed to him by Divine Authority, the Catholic Church.  His acceptance of certain truths of the Gospel is based on his own private judgement and reasoning.

"Since without faith it is impossible to please God, no one is justified without it, nor will anyone attain eternal life unless he perseveres to the end in it . . . All those things are to be believed by Divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written word of God or in tradition, and which are proposed by the Church either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office as Divinely-revealed truths which must be believed."------I Vatican Council

As St. Augustine says,  "Tell us straight out that you do not believe in the Gospel of Christ; for you believe what you want in the Gospel and disbelieve what you want. You believe in yourself rather than in the Gospel."

Protestants reject the Authority of the Church so do not count as material heretics, who are just erring Catholics that might be mistaken about what exactly the Catholic Church teaches.  They are formal heretics.  Yet, if they are good-willed God will lead them to embrace the Catholic Church before their deaths and therefore make their sacramental baptism fruitful.