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Full Version: Pope: All of Amoris Laetitia is ‘sound doctrine’; ban the death penalty
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"In the wake of substantial criticisms of his Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia, Pope Francis has stated that “everything” written in the document is “sound doctrine.” The remarks are especially pertinent in light of the first critical observations on the exhortation issued by Raymond Cardinal Burke which stressed that parts of the document were the Pope’s personal opinion and not to be taken as magisterial."

and

"In a video message sent to the sixth World Congress Against the Death Penalty, which opens today, Pope Francis made his strongest remarks against the death penalty, which he said contradicts the plan of God in that the “commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ has absolute value and applies both to the innocent and to the guilty.”

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/pope-...th-penalty

I miss Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. :( Francis is the Pope and I will adhere to his authority, but that doesn't mean I like what he says.
"In a video message sent to the sixth World Congress Against the Death Penalty, which opens today, Pope Francis made his strongest remarks against the death penalty, which he said contradicts the plan of God in that the “commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ has absolute value and applies both to the innocent and to the guilty.”

This is intriguing. So is Just War Theory repudiated? Is it immoral for a Catholic to join the military? What about self defense or defense of one's family? It sounds as though absolute pacifism is the implication.  Of course, since the Church has previously stated that some of these things are acceptable, I suppose it is only a change in discipline and not in dogma or doctrine?
Boy, what a scene. A pope having to say one of his official documents has sound doctrine. If you were not scandalized until now you'll probably be at this spectacle. If you're not, well, welcome to the club of those who abandoned hope and are waiting for the next pope !

I just hope the pressure doesn't stop with this lame attempt of comforting objections—just throwing the word « Thomist » around will not do.

(06-23-2016, 06:51 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: [ -> ]"In a video message sent to the sixth World Congress Against the Death Penalty, which opens today, Pope Francis made his strongest remarks against the death penalty, which he said contradicts the plan of God in that the “commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ has absolute value and applies both to the innocent and to the guilty.”

This is intriguing. So is Just War Theory repudiated? Is it immoral for a Catholic to join the military? What about self defense or defense of one's family? It sounds as though absolute pacifism is the implication.  Of course, since the Church has previously stated that some of these things are acceptable, I suppose it is only a change in discipline and not in dogma or doctrine?

I doubt this is a change of anything at all. He is just talking, like he always does.

Is anyone else feeling that things are getting worse since his first year of pontificate ? This might be a skewed impression I have, but I don't recall things being this bad at the beginning. I suppose we, the Catholics, should follow this advice.

(06-23-2016, 07:08 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-23-2016, 06:51 PM)Optatus Cleary Wrote: [ -> ]"In a video message sent to the sixth World Congress Against the Death Penalty, which opens today, Pope Francis made his strongest remarks against the death penalty, which he said contradicts the plan of God in that the “commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ has absolute value and applies both to the innocent and to the guilty.”

This is intriguing. So is Just War Theory repudiated? Is it immoral for a Catholic to join the military? What about self defense or defense of one's family? It sounds as though absolute pacifism is the implication.  Of course, since the Church has previously stated that some of these things are acceptable, I suppose it is only a change in discipline and not in dogma or doctrine?
I doubt this is a change of anything at all. He is just talking, like he always does.
But my question with Pope Francis, given his tendency to say things in a way that sounds binding and commanding, is whether we will be judged based on having obeyed or not. So for instance, if someone attempts to kill my family, and I attempt to kill him in order to protect them, I am violating the Pope's instructions. Suppose I die in the attempt, and go to my judgment. Will God judge me to have sinned by disobeying the Pope he placed over me?  On the other hand, if the Pope commands something that seems stupid and incorrect, and I follow it, will I be judged for having obeyed without thinking and following unwise advice? Like I said on the marriage thread, I don't think the Pope thinks about this when he makes a comment, but we have to.
(06-23-2016, 07:08 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]Boy, what a scene. A pope having to say one of his official documents has sound doctrine. If you were not scandalized until now you'll probably be at this spectacle. If you're not, well, welcome to the club of those who abandoned hope and are waiting for the next pope !
I haven't abandoned hope, but I am definitely in the club of those who are waiting for the next Pope.
I've always been intrigued about things like the death penalty and just war because it seems like there is absolutely nothing in the NT or the first few hundred years of Christian teaching that support either, and yet the Roman Catholic Church and a handful of saints have made the case ( in later centuries) for both. Early Christianity seems overwhelmingly otherworldly and eschatological and not at all concerned with building a " just social order", defending against attack or executing people for any reason.

I can't help but think that neither the idea of just war or the death penalty are particularly Christian. They might very we'll be necessary evils, but hardly Christian.


How does one reconcile the earliest centuries of the Church's otherworldly and eschatological focus with the later teachings on just war and the death penalty, and than now with the near total backtracking on both since the Council. Sometimes I wonder if Catholicism is really as clear as some want to think or if there really are a lot of gray areas, especially on things like this.

At any rate there should be allowed a diversity of opinion on these things. I personally think both are necessary in our fallen world , but they are never Christian.
Er... Romans 13.  :Hmm:
I'm not sure this pope would have a handle on Thomism even if it accidentally hit him in his essence.
(06-23-2016, 08:21 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]Er... Romans 13.  :Hmm:

I can see what you mean. Romans 13 seems to give license to whoever is in power to punish evil doers. It could be used in support of the death penalty.  What about just war though?  And is killing someone ever Christian? A ruler must punish wrongdoers but it still seems like a necessary evil, not something particularly Christian.
(06-23-2016, 07:08 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]Is anyone else feeling that things are getting worse since his first year of pontificate ? This might be a skewed impression I have, but I don't recall things being this bad at the beginning. I suppose we, the Catholics, should follow this advice.

In all honestly, from the first instance of him appearing in that balcony, I already felt something bad in my stomach. "Uh-oh." I said. "This could not be good."

I haven't even noticed the absence of the mozzetta until it was pointed out by the media.
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