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Full Version: Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, Pope says
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(06-27-2016, 02:43 PM)spikepaga Wrote: [ -> ]And to say all homosexual relations are "disordered lust" is just plain crazy.  Having sex with each other might be "disordered lust" just like adultery for a married guy is "disordered lust" , but gay people are capable of loving the person they are with.  It's not all black and white .

That's exactly what I mean by "understanding that homosexuality is about a LOT more than just where one wishes to place his genitals (!!!) -- i.e., having an understanding of eros, and of the struggles behind the phenomenon of homosexuality." It gets so tiresome hearing some -- NOT all or most! -- Christians talk about homosexuality only in terms of where genitals go. There's much, much more to it than that, and to me, it sort of betrays a shallowness and dirty minds to hear people talk about homosexuality only in terms of genital acts. I mean, does such a person see romantic relations between heterosexuals only in terms of what they do with their genitals? If not, then they shouldn't do that to homosexuals either. And if they do, then may God pity them for having their minds solely in the gutter.

Anyway, you're brave, too, Spike, for being honest about your Crosses. Stay close to Jesus!
 
Vox,

I would add that defining yourself by sex acts is also an inherently shallow description of who and what you are.  There is dignity in the human person - no matter their struggles - that is short-changed by stuffing them into a box labeled "homosexual" and leaving it at that.  Those who suffer from SSA do struggle and perhaps fail from time to time - like the rest of us.  But they are much more than a label and deserve better from us and themselves. 

That being said, I do believe God can and does work miracles.  He can reshape your perceptions and help you to conquer these disordered attractions.  Does that mean you are meant for marriage?  No, but it does mean that all things are possible through the graces Our Lord showers on us.  Perhaps one day, there will be a woman who awakens something you thought impossible.  It might happen.  Then again, perhaps it won't.  Spikepaga is quite right to caution folks with SSA from jumping into marriage.  Whatever comes must be according to God's plan for your life and not your own.  Does that make the loneliness any easier to bear?  No, I doubt it.  But we all struggle to accept and do God's will in our lives and perhaps there is some consolation in knowing that.

Fontevrault
(06-27-2016, 03:27 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]Anyway, you're brave, too, Spike, for being honest about your Crosses. Stay close to Jesus!

Thanks. Not very brave, but thanks nevertheless.

It's just very sad to see Catholic gay guys who live in such a state of depression, repression and denial.  As gay Catholic men we can never deny the reality of what the Truth of our situation is and that the ideal is always to lead a live of chastity, but there also comes a time when you have to be pragmatic about what you are.  I am sorry if this offends some eyes here; but I can share that I know more than one devout traditional Catholic gay man who is constantly stuck in the vicious circle of self-hatred, denial, hatred towards other gays, and then they themselves act out - and by act out I don't mean by finding one partner and staying with him- by acting out I mean some epic Caligula style stuff- and then  more self hatred comes and the cycle starts again.  That's a really miserable and dysfunctional way to live.  It is super easy for straight Catholics to say- "get married or be chaste-those are your only two options and God help you if you don't pick one"or "carry your cross". "Bye" .  It's not that easy.  Just because a guy is in a relationship with another guy does not automatically mean he is out there promoting the homosexual agenda. No one other than those two people know how they feel about each other and what they are doing in their bed.  Unfortunately I have non Catholic gay liberal friends who understand that I am a traditional Catholic who as a matter of Faith accepts that homosexual acts are sinful , that straight Catholic friends who seem to think there is a special place in hell for gays that is much tostier than where fornicators and adulterers go----they always want to know if I am active with another guy or not, which is absurd, like me asking them if they masturbate or not.



(06-27-2016, 03:35 PM)Fontevrault Wrote: [ -> ]That being said, I do believe God can and does work miracles.  He can reshape your perceptions and help you to conquer these disordered attractions.  Does that mean you are meant for marriage?  No, but it does mean that all things are possible through the graces Our Lord showers on us.  Perhaps one day, there will be a woman who awakens something you thought impossible.  It might happen. 
I'm breathing proof that this can happen. I don't want to give you a sense of false hope, because my sexuality was very up in the air...I wondered about the extent of my interest in men for quite a while, and then I fell completely in love with my wonderful boyfriend. Since I've been with him, I genuinely haven't had a pull to women, period. I am completely devoted to him.

Pray like Jesus did: "If it be Your will, let this pass from me." If it is His will, problem solved. If not, you have a cross that will help you increase in holiness.
(06-27-2016, 03:35 PM)Fontevrault Wrote: [ -> ]Vox,

I would add that defining yourself by sex acts is also an inherently shallow description of who and what you are.

But that's just it, one of the things I wrote about. Homosexuality is about a lot more than "sex acts," just as  heterosexuality is (and many who describe themselves as homosexual don't engage in sex acts) That's one of my main points. Homosexuality is about the object of  one's libido, of eros, about who it is you think "completes you."

Further, describing oneself as "homosexual" is no more "defining oneself" than is describing oneself as "blond" or "attorney." It seems to be non-homosexuals whose minds go always straight to the genitals and, in particular, to "sodomy" (which they always seem to ignore when heterosexuals engage in it).  And it's sad in many ways. It's sad because it betrays a lack of understanding and empathy for homosexuals, it's sad because it forces homosexuals to feel shame for having a disorder, etc.
Spikepaga, we have no right to details of your life and should be offering loving support for your struggles, not judgement.  What I'm saying here is not meant as anything but food for thought.  I have no idea what it is like to struggle as you do and am grateful that I have been spared that cross.  I can certainly understand the sad struggle you relate and how hard that must be.

I think the sex you describe is release but not intimacy.  Intimacy can be found in sexual and non-sexual contexts.  Have you thought about non-sexual relationships and intimacy much?  I find that some of the best parts of the relationship I have with my husband aren't grounded in the sex (though I certainly enjoy that as well honey - in case you are reading this thread) but in the conversations and friendship.  These connections are more important than what we do or don't do on any particular night.  The lives of the saints are filled with stories of intense, non-sexual, but highly intimate friendships and love.  It might do you some good to explore this idea a bit if you have not already done so. 

Regardless you are in my prayers.
(06-28-2016, 06:33 PM)spikepaga Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks. Not very brave, but thanks nevertheless.

Not brave in the larger Western world, but brave to do so in religious circles, I think.

(06-28-2016, 06:33 PM)spikepaga Wrote: [ -> ](snip) It is super easy for straight Catholics to say- "get married or be chaste-those are your only two options and God help you if you don't pick one"or "carry your cross".

It's not any easier for single straights than it is for homosexuals, I don't think. Unmarried straight people have the same need to remain chaste, and marriage is pretty much over these days, thanks to divorce laws, custody laws, and feminism.

(06-28-2016, 06:33 PM)spikepaga Wrote: [ -> ]It's not that easy.  Just because a guy is in a relationship with another guy does not automatically mean he is out there promoting the homosexual agenda. No one other than those two people know how they feel about each other and what they are doing in their bed.  Unfortunately I have non Catholic gay liberal friends who understand that I am a traditional Catholic who as a matter of Faith accepts that homosexual acts are sinful , that straight Catholic friends who seem to think there is a special place in hell for gays that is much tostier than where fornicators and adulterers go----they always want to know if I am active with another guy or not, which is absurd, like me asking them if they masturbate or not.

Exactly. Some religious people seem to think they have some right to nose into other people's business, esp. if the "other people" are homosexual. It's very disturbing and nasty.
Vox, I'm sorry but commonly the term gay or homosexual defines a lifestyle and sexuality.  We can discuss  semantics but I think we may just be saying the same thing differently.  The gay and lesbian people I know are many things outside of the type of sex they engage in.  My cousin and her lesbian lover are kind, generous, amazing women.  When they got "married," they asked people to donate to the homeless shelters near them.  They cared more about helping others in need than about the loot one acquires at a wedding.  I wrote them a letter telling them how classy I thought their request was.  I also gave a donation though I didn't attend their event.  When I finally met my cousin's lover face to face, the first thing she offered was help with my kids, a big hug, and moral support.  She is a lovely person.  I can well see what my cousin loves in her and it has less to do with sex than in her compassion, intellect, and loving nature.  This is a woman who drove an hour and a half each way to come help care for my grandmother and give my aunts a break and did it regularly on her days off over a period of months.  She is fantastic.  In some ways, she is a better person than I am.  We can't put her in a box labeled "lesbian" and leave it at that and to do so is to ignore the rest of who she is.  I'm trying to express something here and probably bungling it.  Please forgive me. 
(06-29-2016, 09:15 AM)Fontevrault Wrote: [ -> ]Vox, I'm sorry but commonly the term gay or homosexual defines a lifestyle and sexuality. 

They describe a sexuality, but not necessarily at all a lifestyle. The Catechism describes homosexuality as a disorder, and people can have that disorder and be perfect saints, as you know.

I don't think we're disagreeing about anything other than the wisdom of describing oneself as homosexual. But that's the word used for the disorder, it's a perfectly good word, so -- why not use it?

I think it's a given, what you say about using the word "homosexual" to "define" a person, as if being homosexual is all they are. But I don't use the word in that way, and I doubt homosexuals themselves do. They know better, ya know?
I would hope they know better, Vox.  If they don't, then they can't be very happy.  Then again, there are quite a few homosexuals who make it all about the sex (think the pride parades in San Francisco and the like).  They enjoy flouting all convention in what I get the feeling is a defense of a lifestyle that they know (in the deep recesses of their souls perhaps) is wrong.  Why else force acceptance and indeed approval on people?  I suppose we lack a term to differentiate between those who struggle with their homosexuality and those that sink deep into a lifestyle that can get pretty frightening.  At least I don't know what language to use. 

If these folks who rail so hard against traditional views would only emphasize everything else about themselves and leave the sex as something private, I think it would be easier to find love and acceptance from those around them.  I'll give another personal example.  My daughter's brother (in her other family) is gay and brought his boyfriend to the wedding.  Now, I've known the brother for years and watched him grow from a rather troubled boy into a self-assured man.  It is not surprising to me that he has happened down this sexual road; he was very confused for a long time and struggled a great deal.  But he has finally found his way a bit: he is a nurse, studying to complete his training for a higher certification, and takes pride in helping others.  I may not agree with his sexuality but I can find other aspects of who and what he is to praise and enjoy.  I don't have to sit around condemning him; we can simply talk about those things we have in common while I hope that Christ's love shows in my actions and words. 

We are all called to attempt to be saints and I hope and pray that anyone who struggles with their sexuality and lives in such internal conflict would find the grace and love to become a saint.  I would honor even the attempt especially since my own attempts at sainthood often end in terrible failure.
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