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My first traditional Catholic Mass in person, in 1985, was Ukrainian.

Hadn't been to a Byzantine Rite service, understandably, since leaving Orthodoxy; the anti-Catholicism turned me off that much.

But two failing Ukrainian Catholic parishes merged a year ago and the church is relatively close so on a free Saturday afternoon off I went. The traditional Roman Mass and office are home but this is good to have. Almost the same experience as 31 years ago... except the community is much smaller.

Cardinal Gibbons called this 100 years ago: within three generations in America, the Eastern rites' people assimilate and leave. It happens to both Orthodox and Catholics. It really is too bad. The Byzantine Rite has so much potential in America (Catholic traditionalism but without some of our cultural baggage) but it just isn't happening.

You'd think my Roman Rite parish having Mass in Latin would be a few nostalgic old folks while the de-nationalized Ukrainian parish (services in English and it advertises as Eastern, not Ukrainian) would attract young seekers interested in exotic spirituality as well as orthodox Christianity, like a Catholic version of the Orthodox convert boomlet, lots of 30-year-olds with beards or headscarves sporting chotki and having lots of kids.

Nope. My Latin parish is a magnet for young families of believing Catholics while the Ukrainian parish is on life support: small and old.

But in a way I'm glad the Ukrainian parish isn't attracting hipsters, such as the online types who latch onto this rite to attack the teachings of the church, agreeing with the Orthodox on everything (down with the Pope, contraception's OK). The parishioners aren't interested in that at all.

I like reconnecting with this wonderful rite and praying in a direct way to end the Orthodox schism.
The anti-Latin sentiment that I found even in Eastern Catholicism solidified my comfort in the Latin Rite. I don't think it should have been this way, but I didn't appreciate the snobby folks on CAF incessantly reminding other posters that they have married priests in the east, that their liturgy is "better," and that they supposedly don't have all the problems with irreverent liturgies or dissident theologians that are so common in the west.
(06-29-2016, 10:30 PM)Credidi Propter Wrote: [ -> ]The anti-Latin sentiment that I found even in Eastern Catholicism solidified my comfort in the Latin Rite. I don't think it should have been this way, but I didn't appreciate the snobby folks on CAF incessantly reminding other posters that they have married priests in the east, that their liturgy is "better," and that they supposedly don't have all the problems with irreverent liturgies or dissident theologians that are so common in the west.

Exactly. The older parishioners at this place, people whose grandparents came from the Ukraine, aren't like those online people at all that way. Not purists liturgically but not anti-Latin or snobs either. Much better.
On the contrary, I just began to attend the Byzantine rite since early this month.

I am tired of the Latin church. I am just so confused about which church I should choose.
There are several kinds of Byzantine Catholicism, all OK with the church, from unlatinized (looks just like the Orthodox) to the moderately latinized form many Ukrainian Catholics prefer. Likewise there are many good reasons to go to a Byzantine Catholic church instead of a Roman Rite one, from finding a refuge from the Novus Ordo to having a calling to adopt the rite as your spiritual home. I think Latin Catholics called to make that change should have their own patron saint who did just that: Metropolitan Andrew (Sheptytsky), the Polish count who became head of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.
(06-29-2016, 10:19 PM)youngfogey Wrote: [ -> ]Nope. My Latin parish is a magnet for young families of believing Catholics while the Ukrainian parish is on life support: small and old.

But in a way I'm glad the Ukrainian parish isn't attracting hipsters, such as the online types who latch onto this rite to attack the teachings of the church, agreeing with the Orthodox on everything (down with the Pope, contraception's OK). The parishioners aren't interested in that at all.

I don't have anything constructive to say but our Ukrainian Roman rite parish is on life support too.  As I said before, the parishioners have links to the western part of Ukraine/Polish influence/Galicians.  We had Ukrainian speakers with Polish last names sort of thing.  Anyways, the refugees/immigrants who came from the 1920s and onward from Ivano-Frankivsk, Zakarpattia, Lviv etc etc have died, are almost ready to leave this earth and their families' children aren't staying in the church.  So, it's a lost cause.  The only 'ethnic' denomination that seems to be going strong are the small but steady Finnish-speaking Lutherans.
The one time I went to an Ukrainian Church I found it very NOish. Very different from my experiences in Greek/Antiochian churches liturgywise. Definitively not thriving like the TLMs in my town.
Their girls were very pretty, though. So, yes, this division has gone for too long ! Come to Rome and you'll learn to love Rosaries and teaching Latin to your kids !
(06-29-2016, 11:57 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]Their girls were very pretty, though. So, yes, this division has gone for too long ! Come to Rome and you'll learn to love Rosaries and teaching Latin to your kids !
Not derailing this but I can't resist. 

Why is it that anytime there is a mention of a Slavic community someone has to say something about pretty girls?  LOL  There are those of us that look like we just crawled out of a cave at the base of Belukha.  While it may be better if we all learned Latin and loved the Rosary, be careful for what you wish!
American bishops were wrong to tell Rome to restrict minority (Eastern) Catholic rites in their country. Banning the ordination of married men caused a number of Slavs to switch to the Orthodox; that's most of American Russian Orthodoxy. But those rites have a self-limited lifespan as Cardinal Gibbons foresaw; assimilation within three generations as he said.

Crossover practices from the Novus Ordo are a problem but relatively minor; the only one  I saw at this new place that I don't like was a lady lector facing the congregation from a lectern, rather than a man standing in the nave facing the altar. You can't always have your way, I'm in no position to tell the parish what to do, and I'll put up with it over being in schism.

Yes; there are Roman Riters in the Ukraine and Russia (likely of Polish descent in the Ukraine). Interesting mirror of Ukrainian Catholics in America: the communities' lifespan is self-limiting.

The church doesn't teach that you have to adopt rosaries and Latin to be Catholic! We shouldn't suppress minority rites in America like the American bishops wanted; these rites deserve a chance but I'm afraid they don't thrive in the long run. But they're better than the Novus Ordo. So this Ukrainian parish has my full support and I may end up a monthly part-timer there.

And yes, Slavic women are often beautiful, very feminine, maybe something the culture cultivates as well as natural beauty (cheekbones). In my city, Philadelphia, there's a Polish neighborhood with a market; the average girls who work there, immigrants, glow with femininity making them seem like models compared to the local talent.
Maybe it depends on location and demographics?

I attend a Byzantine Catholic parish that is small but thriving in terms of "diversity:" there are plenty of young children, some young adults, babies, older men and women, elderly, etc. None of the original parishioners (who were ethnic Eastern Europeans) remain but some of their descendants still attend the parish. We also have Hispanics and "non-European" derived people who have found their way to this parish. The liturgy is done in English but some of the hymns might be sung in the original language to not forget the original "founders" of the parish.

I know of another Byzantine Catholic parish west of me (it's Ukrainian) that is also thriving from what I see and hear; the pastor (?) of the parish even has his own radio program.

I have not yet come across anyone who is anti-Latin. They definitely exist on the Internet, but are minor in reality.
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