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I have a question for those people who speak a language other than English. In English paragraph 2358 of the CCC that describes the homosexual orientation as "objectively disordered" sounds particularly harsh because the word 'disorder' in English has strong psychological connotations, so it sounds like the Church is passing a negative judgement on the mental health of SSA people. I was wondering if the word used for 'disordered' in non-English languages has a similar negative connotation in those languages, or if it's just an issue with English. I've cut and paste the sentence in a few different languages below for those who can speak them (or feel free to look up the section in your own language if it's not included below).

Thanks!



English - This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.

Italian - Questa inclinazione, oggettivamente disordinata, costituisce per la maggior parte di loro una prova.


Spanish - Esta inclinación, objetivamente desordenada, constituye para la mayoría de ellos una auténtica prueba

Portugese  -  Esta propensão, objectivamente desordenada, constitui, para a maior parte deles, uma provação.

French - Cette propension, objectivement désordonnée, constitue pour la plupart d’entre eux une épreuve
(06-30-2016, 03:26 AM)Aragon Wrote: [ -> ]I have a question for those people who speak a language other than English. In English paragraph 2358 of the CCC that describes the homosexual orientation as "objectively disordered" sounds particularly harsh because the word 'disorder' in English has strong psychological connotations, so it sounds like the Church is passing a negative judgement on the mental health of SSA people. I was wondering if the word used for 'disordered' in non-English languages has a similar negative connotation in those languages, or if it's just an issue with English. I've cut and paste the sentence in a few different languages below for those who can speak them (or feel free to look up the section in your own language if it's not included below).

The term "disordered" suggests that something is "defective," or "less than the ideal."  The term doesn't actually mean that though in this context- it simply means that this condition is contrary to the natural order of things.  That really should be obvious, because a species cannot survive if its individual members do not have the instinct to do what leads to reproduction.  The term "disordered" is used in more of a logical sense here, according to one of the term's definitions.  It is not used here according to its colloquial understanding.  The Catechism is a formal document, and it must not be read and studied as such.
The word "disordered" is correct from the philosophical point of view.

In philosophical terms, an "order" is a step-wise sequence of means which has in view the proper end. A thing has existential (metaphysical) goodness when it exists. It is morally good when it is directed to its proper end.

We're not talking about the metaphysical goodness of homosexual inclinations. That does not matter in this context, and offers.

Homosexual inclinations, however, do not belong to the proper order of human acts to man's end (purpose). The sexual functions are intended primarily for generation, and secondarily (and as an effect to promote the primary end) for the pleasure of those engaging in these acts. When the primary end is willfully frustrated by men, the functions are no longer ordered to the proper end, and a secondary end is sought instead.

That is by definition against the order of things. It is intrinsically disordered.

Homosexuality, for most, does constitute a psychological disorder as well, and this can be shown by the history of the treatment of mental disorders. Until very recently, homosexual was classified by mental health professionals as a psychological disorder. If that has since changed, it was not due to a better understanding of mental health, but a willful decision that homosexual behavior is normal. And this was thanks to contraception and abortion and the changes in the nature of marriage in secular thoughts. In these cases again, the very order of marriage and the sexual funcations have been perverted from generative to for pleasure with the possible side effect of generation.

As CP said here, the Catechism is not meant as a profane document, but one with very particular language. As far as I know, (I speak English fluently, and less-than-fluently can speak and read French, Spanish and a bit of Italian) there is no variation in meaning in the various languages quoted, if one looks at the Catechism in its proper light.
I agree with the other two. The fact that it's "objectively disordered" is very accurate - I'm fluent in French and the "désordonnée" is simply not in the correct order. If you want to get downright technical, the fact that SSA persons put the second purpose of their sexuality (the pleasure) ahead of it's primary function (reproduction) is in the wrong order.

You can also argue that anyone that uses birth control shares the characteristics of a similar disorder, although in that case it's a function of choices and not constitution (i.e. it can be overcome by simply stopping birth control vs. continuing to struggle with SSA).

Anybody I know IRL that is homosexual is messed up, usually something directly tied to how they grew up. I know that cliche and trite, but it's the truth that the community doesn't want to admit. They blame it on being discriminated against, and the culture we live in, blah blah blah. Like I told a family member who accused me of being homophobic, I don't think she's an *sshole because she's gay, but because she treats other people badly. I'm pretty sure I would feel the same about her if she was straight. But I'm also sympathetic because I was around when she was growing up and I "get" her family dynamics, and I can totally see how who she is is directly tied to stuff growing up.
Magister is correct (I looked at the French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese - while I don't speak Portuguese, the language is easily understandable given my knowledge of the others).  What's up Aragon?  What are you looking for here: if the English translation particularly mean to homosexuals?  Nope; it's just the truth. 

Also, keep in mind that you're only looking at one sentence of a longer passage.  2358 goes on to say:
Quote:They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

So, while homosexual inclinations are against the natural order, people who suffer from such inclinations should be treated with respect and love.  They are still God's children despite the particular cross they carry. 

Magister is also spot on in his assessment of homosexuality as a psychological issue. 
My contribution is Russian.  So, here's the same line:  Эта наклонность, объективно нарушающая порядок, для большинства из них является трудным испытанием.

"объективно" means objectively.  "нарушающая порядок" means disturbing, violating, breaking "порядок" the order or the system.  So, like all the other languages, and words by the previous posters, it is disordered or disruptive.  Catechism is catechism and though translated words may be nuanced, they are all meant to mean the same thing.  Hope that aids in your investigation.

Thank you to those who responded. Maybe I should clarify that I am not asking if the word other languages uses means "disordered", I am asking if that word has psychological connotations in those languages like it does in English?
(06-30-2016, 09:37 AM)Fontevrault Wrote: [ -> ]Magister is correct (I looked at the French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese - while I don't speak Portuguese, the language is easily understandable given my knowledge of the others).  What's up Aragon?  What are you looking for here: if the English translation particularly mean to homosexuals?  Nope; it's just the truth. 

Yes, thanks, I know that the Catechism uses the word in a philosophical way to mean that the inclination is not properly ordered towards the unitive and procreative end of sexuality. However I am more asking if the word 'disordered' has psychological connotations in French/Italian/Spanish as it does in English?
(06-30-2016, 10:23 AM)Aragon Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you to those who responded. Maybe I should clarify that I am not asking if the word other languages uses means "disordered", I am asking if that word has psychological connotations in those languages like it does in English?

In Spanish, yes, it has the same connotations as in English.
(06-30-2016, 10:23 AM)Aragon Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you to those who responded. Maybe I should clarify that I am not asking if the word other languages uses means "disordered", I am asking if that word has psychological connotations in those languages like it does in English?

Yes, like in English, it can mean a malady.  Also, something being unnatural. 
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