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(07-06-2016, 09:52 AM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]It's pretty mind blowing that, what, 50 years after Sacrosanctum Concilium, people have to suggest that people should follow the rubrics. The rubrics already assume the priest is in ad orientem.

If that's the case, why did (99% of) the Popes and Bishops who actually approved and implemented Sacrosanctum Concilium not celebrate Ad Orientem? 

Could it be that instead of being a misunderstood document which just needs reform, Sacrosanctum Concilium is actually a bad document?
I agree with Dave. It gets pretty hard to argue that the rubrics are clear in letter and spirit, when those who are entrusted to apply the letter and interpret the spirit do so as they have done these last decades. Clearly, what we see in the NO is what the NO is supposed to be. How does the Pope celebrate? I don't know, but it would be good to know.

And while I find this cardinal to be a very good man, it is sad, very sad to see that the best we can hope for is a cardinal's suggestion. When Pope Francis wants something, he barks an order, he produces a new law, he fires and he hires. This gentle approach to correcting an aberration seems more sad than anything to me. I suspect this cardinal is in a very weak position in the curia, that is, his pull with the pope. Otherwise, wouldn't he be reaffirming SP, reaffirming that the TLM was never abrogated and can never be abrogated? I don't know.
(07-06-2016, 09:40 AM)ermy_law Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-05-2016, 11:01 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]Bishop Dominique Marie Jean Rey who is attending the conference announced this:
"Your Eminence, I am only one bishop of one diocese in the south of France. But in response to your appeal I wish to announce now, that certainly on the last Sunday of Advent of this year in my celebration of the Holy Eucharist at my cathedral, and on other occasions as appropriate, I shall celebrate ad orientem—towards the Lord who comes. Before Advent I shall address a letter to my priests and people on this question to explain my action. I shall encourage them to follow my example. I shall ask them to receive my personal testimony, as the chief pastor of the diocese, in the spirit of one who wishes to call his people to rediscover the primacy of grace in their liturgical celebrations through this practice. I shall explain that this change will help us to recall the essential nature of Christian worship: that it must always be oriented to the Lord."

C.

If facing east is worship "towards the Lord who comes" and "the primacy of grace" is obtained by conducting "their liturgical celebrations" with "this practice," then why is this bishop going to do this only on the last Sunday of Advent and why is he going to merely "encourage [his priests] to follow [his] example"? 

Worshiping God is apparently considered just an option in the Novus Ordo.
This may help reorient (pun intended) the modern priest and piety toward a liturgy which is less of a theatrical performance, but it ignores the real problem with the Novus Ordo.

There really are few solid "rubrics" for the Novus Ordo, since most is offered by way of suggestion in the General Instruction which is meant to be both rubrical and doctrinal, and fails at each.

The problem with the Novus Ordo is not in its rubrics, or performance, but the anti-Catholic and pro-Protestant spirit underlying its very construction.

Turn whichever way you want, use whatever language you choose. If it's the Novus Ordo Missæ, its fundamentally flawed nevertheless.

And what of "mutual enrichment"? The Novus Ordo liturgy has nothing substantial to offer to the Traditional Roman liturgy. Perhaps a few accidental things which are not really part of the new liturgy, but happened to coincide, but absolutely zero otherwise.
(07-06-2016, 11:42 AM)BC Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2016, 09:40 AM)ermy_law Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-05-2016, 11:01 PM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]Bishop Dominique Marie Jean Rey who is attending the conference announced this:
"Your Eminence, I am only one bishop of one diocese in the south of France. But in response to your appeal I wish to announce now, that certainly on the last Sunday of Advent of this year in my celebration of the Holy Eucharist at my cathedral, and on other occasions as appropriate, I shall celebrate ad orientem—towards the Lord who comes. Before Advent I shall address a letter to my priests and people on this question to explain my action. I shall encourage them to follow my example. I shall ask them to receive my personal testimony, as the chief pastor of the diocese, in the spirit of one who wishes to call his people to rediscover the primacy of grace in their liturgical celebrations through this practice. I shall explain that this change will help us to recall the essential nature of Christian worship: that it must always be oriented to the Lord."

C.

If facing east is worship "towards the Lord who comes" and "the primacy of grace" is obtained by conducting "their liturgical celebrations" with "this practice," then why is this bishop going to do this only on the last Sunday of Advent and why is he going to merely "encourage [his priests] to follow [his] example"? 

Worshiping God is apparently considered just an option in the Novus Ordo.

Exactly.

Adding traditional aesthetics to the Novus Ordo is meant to placate the conservatives who remain on the fence, convinced that the problems in the Church are primarily liturgical when, in reality, the deterioration of the liturgy is an effect of the destabilization of doctrine.
(07-06-2016, 01:28 PM)ermy_law Wrote: [ -> ]Adding traditional aesthetics to the Novus Ordo is meant to placate the conservatives who remain on the fence, convinced that the problems in the Church are primarily liturgical when, in reality, the deterioration of the liturgy is an effect of the destabilization of doctrine.

I think most "conservative" Catholics are starting to see a doctrinal problem now, still, they're not connecting it to it's true source. They're thinking it's just a bunch of liberals, even a liberal Pope. They don't connect it with Modernism, Protestantism, Relativism, Rationalism, and Materialism, all of which were rolled into the Nouvelle Théologie, and packaged into a convenient, easy-to-swallow, 16-document capsule.

I don't think they really think the crisis is liturgical.

But where they see liturgical problems they think it's just about the aesthetics and setting. In truth, they have some point. A Novus Ordo Mass ad orientem, in Latin with all the trappings of a traditional Solemn Mass makes it much less likely to interpret the Mysterium Fidei and Jewish-Table-Blessing-as-Offertory the wrong way, but it's doesn't take these out. It doesn't remove the poison, it just throws a bunch of activated charcoal on the poison, which may not make it so deadly. It's still poison, though.

I don't think Cardinal Sarah's motive is evil. I fear, though, that the effect will not be to move toward a return to the traditional liturgy, but rather a satisfaction with a more aesthetically traditional "Bastard Rite" to borrow Msgr Lefebvre's term. The Novus Ordo will still be the illegitimate offspring of Modernist Churchmen and Protestant heretics concocting a witches' brew which they forced down the throats of badly Catechized Catholics. The "enrichment" will merely be a shot of laughing gas to calm the conservatives down.
I agree with you, Magister. Good post.
The Novus Ordo will never die until the Church itself is reformed from top to bottom. However, in the meantime a better, more traditional looking NO would at least prepare the faithful for such a thing.
(07-06-2016, 03:10 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2016, 01:28 PM)ermy_law Wrote: [ -> ]Adding traditional aesthetics to the Novus Ordo is meant to placate the conservatives who remain on the fence, convinced that the problems in the Church are primarily liturgical when, in reality, the deterioration of the liturgy is an effect of the destabilization of doctrine.

I think most "conservative" Catholics are starting to see a doctrinal problem now, still, they're not connecting it to it's true source. They're thinking it's just a bunch of liberals, even a liberal Pope. They don't connect it with Modernism, Protestantism, Relativism, Rationalism, and Materialism, all of which were rolled into the Nouvelle Théologie, and packaged into a convenient, easy-to-swallow, 16-document capsule.

I don't think they really think the crisis is liturgical.

But where they see liturgical problems they think it's just about the aesthetics and setting. In truth, they have some point. A Novus Ordo Mass ad orientem, in Latin with all the trappings of a traditional Solemn Mass makes it much less likely to interpret the Mysterium Fidei and Jewish-Table-Blessing-as-Offertory the wrong way, but it's doesn't take these out. It doesn't remove the poison, it just throws a bunch of activated charcoal on the poison, which may not make it so deadly. It's still poison, though.

I don't think Cardinal Sarah's motive is evil. I fear, though, that the effect will not be to move toward a return to the traditional liturgy, but rather a satisfaction with a more aesthetically traditional "Bastard Rite" to borrow Msgr Lefebvre's term. The Novus Ordo will still be the illegitimate offspring of Modernist Churchmen and Protestant heretics concocting a witches' brew which they forced down the throats of badly Catechized Catholics. The "enrichment" will merely be a shot of laughing gas to calm the conservatives down.

I understand the largely good-willed thinking from alot of "conservatives" but it is really beyond frustrating to see these ongoing attempts to save the Novus Ordo, here and there.

Anything but go back to the Traditional Latin Mass, apparently.

The Pro Multis, Ad Orientem, etc. etc.... traditional Catholics will continue to be proved right about as the head in the sand denials finally come around painstakingly slowly.   

This thing was conceived in malice.  Yes, this liturgy was a Judeo-Masonic, Modernist, Protestant concoction founded on lies.  Everyone who doesn't know this by now, should.

Whether it is a more "traditional" N.O. or not, God is not getting worshipped as He should be and demands.

These prelates need to get real, be honest with God and themselves, and scrap it already.






(07-06-2016, 03:31 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]The Novus Ordo will never die until the Church itself is reformed from top to bottom. However, in the meantime a better, more traditional looking NO would at least prepare the faithful for such a thing.

No doubt, but we need to keep perspective, of course.

Is it better that people who have no experience of Tradition or are basically stuck in the blah Novus Ordo land begin to see a more reverent, less-apt-to-lead-them-astray form of the liturgy. Sure.

Does this actually address any substantial problem? No.

Will it change anything? Probably not. Consider the "Benedictine Altar Arrangement". It was the pope, himself, who pushed this by example. How many places adopted it? Not many. Many abandoned it soon after. This will be the same. The same ones who saw the BAA will now have "ad orientem" occasionally, perhaps frequently. Joe Catholic, though, even if he's a decent believing, practicing Catholic will see nothing different.

If you look at what the "conservative" Catholics and Ecclesia Dei conservative types are saying today on the Internet ... it seems as if the triumph of the Immaculate Heart were upon us.

To me it sounds like Ron Paul supporters coming out loudly to proclaim their "revolution" has succeeded, while in a few months, they'll buy the "lesser of two evils" line and be voting "against" the more honest Liberal.

This isn't nothing, for sure. But it's a drop in the ocean, not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
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