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Michael Voris absolutely nailed this.


I totally disagree with Voris. Saying that homosexuals don't choose to be SSA in NO way means they are "born that way," that there's a "gay gene." That's a major false dichotomy. And one can change one's actions, and Christ can change anything He wants, but one can't expect to not have SSA just because one embraces the Faith and comes to know that SSA is a disorder. That's silliness.
(08-02-2016, 01:41 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I totally disagree with Voris. Saying that homosexuals don't choose to be SSA in NO way means they are "born that way," that there's a "gay gene." That's a major false dichotomy. And one can change one's actions, and Christ can change anything He wants, but one can't expect to not have SSA just because one embraces the Faith and comes to know that SSA is a disorder. That's silliness.

Did I misunderstand him? It sounded to me like he said that they aren't "born that way," that there is no "gay gene," and that homosexuals can change like anyone else. I don't think Michael was saying that you can expect to not have SSA after certain requirements are met, just that God can work on a person with SSA and you don't necessarily have to be in that situation completely. The concept of "all gays can change and be straight" doesn't seem consistent with Michael's other videos, so what I think he meant was, "some gays will work through whatever contributed to their sexuality and have opposite sex attraction, while others will remain faithful to Christ and carry their cross if it doesn't change." Three percent of people who previously identified as bisexual or homosexual now identify as heterosexual, I read, and many people progress towards exclusive heterosexuality as they get older.  I think that's all he meant. Perhaps I misunderstood him in the video, but that's how I interpreted it.
He could also be addressing the fact that they make it out like "well you're a homosexual so go have gay sex, there's nothing you can do about it... it's ok." Even though he doesn't explicitly say it, he's a living example of someone who can move away from that. I won't make any guesses to what extent he still currently has SSA, but he proves that there is something you can do about it. It's just something that most people don't want to face (celibacy).
(08-02-2016, 09:46 PM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-02-2016, 01:41 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I totally disagree with Voris. Saying that homosexuals don't choose to be SSA in NO way means they are "born that way," that there's a "gay gene." That's a major false dichotomy. And one can change one's actions, and Christ can change anything He wants, but one can't expect to not have SSA just because one embraces the Faith and comes to know that SSA is a disorder. That's silliness.

Did I misunderstand him? It sounded to me like he said that they aren't "born that way," that there is no "gay gene," and that homosexuals can change like anyone else. I don't think Michael was saying that you can expect to not have SSA after certain requirements are met, just that God can work on a person with SSA and you don't necessarily have to be in that situation completely. The concept of "all gays can change and be straight" doesn't seem consistent with Michael's other videos, so what I think he meant was, "some gays will work through whatever contributed to their sexuality and have opposite sex attraction, while others will remain faithful to Christ and carry their cross if it doesn't change." Three percent of people who previously identified as bisexual or homosexual now identify as heterosexual, I read, and many people progress towards exclusive heterosexuality as they get older.  I think that's all he meant. Perhaps I misunderstood him in the video, but that's how I interpreted it.

I think you misunderstood him. First, Voris said this:  "Last week, the diocese of San Jose, under the leadership of Bishop Patrick McGraff (sp), released a document laying out its guidelines for ministering to same sex-attracted individuals. Using secular language, and largely eschewing Church language, the document's name is 'Guidelines for the Catholic Ministry LGBT Council.' What hogwash!... This document presumes that individuals who are attracted to the same sex, quote, 'did not choose and cannot change their sexual orientation'." 

From there, he goes on about how there's no gay gene. That's the logical leap, and I disagree with him completely. A person's not choosing his sexuality does not logically imply, necessarily, that there's a "gay gene."

After this, he talks about how people can change -- and they obviously can. Some people's sexual orientations even change. But that's not typical, as you yourself indicate with your mention of "3%". There are a lot of homosexual traditionalist Catholics who post here, and I'd bet that all of them are still attracted to members of their own sex while being totally committed to following Church teaching and striving for virtue and holiness.

While Christ can miraculously cure anything He wants to, we shouldn't count on miracles, and I think that Voris's talking the way he did could lead people to think that, if they're homosexual, all they have to do is become Catholic and the gay will go away. That's simply not how it works most of the time. In fact, that's how it works almost never. It can also lead people to think, "well, I'm Catholic now, I go  to Mass, I love Christ -- and I'm still homosexual. Since He hasn't cured me like Mr. Voris said He would, then forgetabout it."
SSA isn't a sin itself. This video seems to imply it is, even if it doesn't come out and say it. Didn't this guy "come out" recently? I detect some self-hating gay vibe in this video and it's wild conclusions. I mean acknowledging that somebody may have SSA for the rest of their life is "destroying hope" and "It's not true, it's a lie!" ??? :eyeroll:  I mean if Mr. Voris wants to think that he is no longer "gay", that's between him and God, but don't go around telling other people to have the same view on the matter.

(08-03-2016, 01:55 AM)Estevao Wrote: [ -> ]SSA isn't a sin itself. Didn't this guy "come out" recently? I detect some self-hating gay vibe in this video and it's wild conclusions. I mean acknowledging that somebody may have SSA for the rest of their life is "destroying hope"? No, it's not.  :eyeroll:

He "came out" about this past but has said nothing directly, to my knowledge, about whether or not he still struggles with SSA -- until this video, which does seem to intimate that he no longer struggles what homosexual attraction. Whether he does or doesn't is none of my business whatsoever, of course, and IF he does, it doesn't harm his apostolate in my eyes at all. But I think he does a disservice to those struggling with SSA by getting them to count on the slim possibility that their homosexuality will disappear if they just strive for holiness.

Anyway, I totally agree with you that acknowledging the possibility, the probability (in the everyday sense of the term), that a homosexual will struggle with SSA for the rest of his life is in no way "destroying hope." It's being realistic, letting him know that he's in for a struggle to remain chaste, and letting him know that that struggle can be won. It allows him to acknowledge the reality of his life and not feel as if he has to hide his struggles because "now he's Catholic, so the gay should've disappeared by now." He can then ask for support and prayer, and not have to hide or feel ashamed for having a disorder.

Again, this isn't to say that some people's orientations can't change. Some -- a very few people's -- do. But it's not typical. If that's happened for Mr. Voris, then great! But he shouldn't assume his experiences are typical or, worse, that not experiencing what he might have is indicative of a "bad Catholic."