FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Martin Luther was a ‘teacher of the faith’, say German bishops
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2

From The Catholic Herald:



Martin Luther was a ‘teacher of the faith’, say German bishops

In a new report Germany's bishops say the 500th anniversary of the Reformation must involve repentance on both sides.

Vox Wrote:
Yup, some members of the human element of the Church sold indulgences and engaged in simony. Old news. Done apologized for. Now it's everyone else's turn.

Germany’s Catholic bishops have praised Martin Luther as a “Gospel witness and teacher of the faith” and called for closer ties with Protestants.

Vox Wrote:
A "teacher of of the faith" even though he denies certain Sacraments, deplores celibacy, etc.? Come again? And how to praise the heretic Luther while also appeasing our "elder brothers" when Luther wrote such beauties as "On the Jews and their Lies"?

When you get into the business of pleasing everyone but God, things can get tricky!

In a 206-page report, “The Reformation in Ecumenical Perspective”, Bishop Gerhard Feige of Magdeburg, chairman of the German bishops’ ecumenical commission, said the “history of the Reformation has encountered a changeable reception in the Catholic Church, where its events and protagonists were long seen in a negative, derogatory light”.

“While the wounds are still felt to the present day, it is gratifying that Catholic theology has succeeded, in the meantime, in soberly reconsidering the events of the 16th century,” he said in the report, published this week by Germany’s Bonn-based bishops’ conference.

Vox Wrote:
"Catholic theology" reconsiders things? How can an abstract thing like "theology" do anything? I think he means to say that certain self-proclaimed Catholic theologians have "reconsidered" things and are willing to sell out the Faith in order to appease.

Bishop Feige said the “history and consequences” of the Reformation would be debated during its upcoming 500th anniversary, but added that there was consensus that previous mutual condemnations were invalid.

“Memories of the Reformation and the subsequent separation of Western Christianity are not free from pain,” Bishop Feige said. “But through lengthy ecumenical dialogue, the theological differences rooted in the period have been re-evaluated – as is documented in the work presented by our ecumenical commission.”

Vox Wrote:
Those theological differences can only be reconciled if the non-Catholic side embraces the Catholic position. Anything else is a selling out of the Faith.

Martin Lazar, the Magdeburg diocesan spokesman, told Catholic News Service on Wednesday that the Reformation still caused tensions in Germany, especially “in religiously separated families.”

The bishops’ report said the “Catholic Church may recognise today what was important in the Reformation – namely, that Sacred Scripture is the centre and standard for all Christian life.

Vox Wrote:"The" center and standard? What about Tradition and the Magisterium? Are we being told that the Church now embraced sola scriptura or something?

“Connected with this is Martin Luther’s fundamental insight that God’s self-revelation in Jesus Christ for the salvation of the people is proclaimed in the Gospel – that Jesus Christ is the centre of Scripture and the only mediator.”

Vox Wrote:LOL What?!?!? Are they implying that, before Luther, the Truth that Jesus Christ is the center of Scripture and the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the One by Whom we get to the Father? Really?!

The Reformation is traditionally dated from the October 1517 publication of Luther’s 95 Theses, questioning the sale of indulgences and the Gospel foundations of papal authority.

Luther was excommunicated by Pope Leo X in January 1521 and outlawed by Holy Roman Emperor Charles V.

The German bishops describe Luther as “a religious pathfinder, Gospel witness and teacher of the faith,” whose “concern for renewal in repentance and conversion” had not received an “adequate hearing” in Rome.

Vox Wrote:Maybe his concerns weren't adequately heard in Rome; I don't know. But what he did with those concerns ended up rending Christendom and getting millions to embrace heresy and leave the Church founded by Christ. Sorry, but I can't celebrate the guy.

They said the reformer’s work still posed a “theological and spiritual challenge” and had “ecclesial and political implications for understanding the Church and the Magisterium.”

Vox Wrote:
A "theological and spiritual challenge" how exactly? What is he allegedly able to teach us, after 1500 years of the Church's earthly existence, about the proper understanding of the Church and Her Magisterium? What did the Church Fathers miss that this heretic thought up while sitting on his toilet? (another interesting article on that)

The report said a joint Catholic-Lutheran statement in 1980 commemorating the Augsburg Confession, which set out the new Lutheran faith, had been crucial in bringing churches closer, while another ecumenical statement in 1983, on the 500th anniversary of Luther’s birth, had started an “intensive engagement” with the reformer’s work.

A historic 1999 joint declaration on the doctrine of justification was a “milestone in ecumenical dialogue,” the report said, by recognising that remaining differences should “no longer have a church-dividing effect.”

Vox Wrote:

First of all, the Lutheran faith community isn't a "church." Second of all, how can we not be divided when Lutherans embrace sola fide and sola scriptura, deny some of Christ's Sacraments, deny that the Catholic Church is the One, True Church outside of which no one is saved, deny papal authority, etc., etc.?

The bishops’ report includes June 2015 conciliatory letters between the German bishops’ conference president, Cardinal Reinhard Marx, and Lutheran Bishop Heinrich Strohm, president of the Evangelical Church of Germany, outlining plans for a 2017 ecumenical pilgrimage to the Holy Land and a Lent service devoted to “healing memories.”

In an interview with CNS, the ecumenical commission’s deputy chairman, Bishop Heinz Algermissen of Fulda, said Catholic-Lutheran ties had improved since the Second Vatican Council, but that churches must work for “visible unity, not just reconciled diversity.”

“This means not only praying together, but meeting the challenge of speaking with one voice as Christians when we are all challenged by aggressive atheism and secularism, as well as by [radicalised] Islam. Otherwise we will lose more and more ground,” he said.

Vox Wrote:"Dialoguing" (I hate that word) in order to confirm what we do have in common and to band together enough to fight various political and social phenomena is great. But to go beyond that and to water down Catholic doctrine -- das las sein.

“In commemorating the Reformation, we cannot just see it as a jubilee, but should also admit our guilt for past errors and repent on both sides for the past 500 years,” he added.

Catholics make up 29 per cent of Germany’s 82 million inhabitants, with the Evangelical Church of Germany accounting for 27 per cent, although all denominations have faced declining membership.
Yeah, that "We're so sorry for indulgences" shtick is really, really getting old. It's clear that it's just a cover for working through other, more modern grievances. "Pleasing everyone". Now that's what it's about. Cardinal Bellarmine didn't "soberly reconsider" the events of the 16th century, that's for sure.  :LOL:

Scripture as the center and standard for all Christian life... wow! So much for Catholicism, the Fathers, and the whole deposit passed down from the Apostles. What the heck? How has it even come to this? Do these bishops just not care? Was the 60s-70s entirely one big group-hug without any substance? What a waste of time!

Dialoguing. It's hard to believe how so silly a word could be so ugly, too.

Is there really any point in praying that this event doesn't go forward, or that the bishops change their minds? They seem pretty wilful against the plain old truth of former ages as it is, already. It'll take a pretty big bucket of heart-softening grace to bring the stubbornness level down.
I really don't see the problem with selling indulgences. Why shouldn't there be an indulgence for a work of sacrificial giving that is done alongside the usual conditions for an indulgence? If the interior intention is good, then providing for the upkeep of the church is meritorious.

Sure, it was abused, but every good work is subject to abuse, especially when the people aren't taught properly.
People have got to call a spade a spade and call Protestantism out for what it is: a heresy. This protestantization of Catholic identity has gone on long enough. The more we appeal to the lowest common denominator, the more we lose in terms of our devotional life ("the Rosary offends some Protestants; we better emphasize something else to be more ecumenical"), our church interiors ("statues offend some Protestants; we better have a really empty interior...maybe a cross, but no crucifix"), our church exteriors ("these spires and bells may look too Roman; let's build a common meeting hall"), etc. This will never end well. I'm tired of this rhetoric of "let's act like the Protestants are pretty much like us," because it's uncharitable to the Protestant who needs the Catholic Faith and it waters down the Catholic's understanding of their faith.  Protestantism, like any heresy, is like poison; even one drop in a glass of water makes the whole glass dangerous.
I guess I'm just too much of an Easterner but I think selling indulgences is materialistic and evil, it's basically putting grace on the marketplace and trying to make of God's blessings something that can be bought and sold.

Personally I am uncomfortable with indulgences period,but especially the selling of them.  Luther had many faults, but railing against selling God's grace in the marketplace was something I think he got right.  Of course most Roman Catholics would probably disagree with me but it is what it is.  I find the concept of indulgences and the selling of them to be very difficult to justify.

That being said, the Roman Catholic Church as a whole should not celebrate the Reformation as a good thing.  The words and actions of modern popes and clerics do nothing but undermine the credibility of Roman Catholicism. One cannot on one hand and in one century excommunicate Martin Luther and 500 years later celebrate both him and the    Church he founded without losing practically all your credibility.

If anything Rome ought to be unapologetically Roman Catholic. That's the only way to remain credible,to be the one church that remains the same. Sadly,I've found scant evidence that this is the case and so this is just one more nail in the coffin of Roman Catholic credibility for me.

This cleric either is clearly no believing Catholic or does not care for souls. 

Saint Teresa of Avila
(1582): “It was that vision (of Hell) which filled me with very great distress. I had the greatest sorrow for the so many lost souls that condemned themselves to Hell, especially those Lutherans. - for they were once members of the Church by Baptism - and also gave me the most vehement desires for the salvation of souls [...] I saw souls falling into hell like snowflakes.” [Source: The Collected Works of St. Teresa of Avila, Volume 1, Chapter 32. Published by Institute of Carmelite Studies]

--[b, Sister Maria Serafina Micheli (1849-1911)[/b] was beatified in Faicchio in the province of Benevento in the diocese of Cerreto Sannita 28 May 2011.  In 1883, The foundress of the Sisters of the Angels, was once going to Eisleben, Saxony, the birthplace of Luther. The fourth centenary of the birth of the great heretic (10 November 1483) was celebrated on that day. She related:

"The streets were crowded, balconies included. Among the many personalities were expected at any time, with the arrival of Emperor Wilhelm I, who presided over the solemn celebrations.

The future Blessed, noting the great hoopla was not interested in knowing the reason for this unusual animation, wanted to find a church and pray to be able to make a visit to the Blessed Sacrament. After walking for a while, she finally found one, but the doors were closed. She knelt on the steps for serenity prayer. As it was in the evening, she had not noticed that it was not a Catholic church, but Protestant. While praying, the angel appeared, who said to her. “Arise, because it is a Protestant church” Then he added: “But I want you to see where Martin Luther was condemned and the pain he suffered as a punishment for his pride.”

After these words, she saw a terrible abyss of fire, where they were cruelly tortured countless souls. In the bottom of this hole there was a man, Martin Luther, which differed from the other: it was surrounded by demons that forced him to kneel, and all armed with hammers, they tried in vain , to shove a big nail in the head. The Religious thought, if some of the people had seen this dramatic scene, they would not have made honors and other commemorations and celebrations for such a character.

Later, the opportunity arose to remind her sisters live in humility and in secret. She was convinced that Martin Luther was punished in hell especially for the first deadly sin of pride. Pride is a deadly sin, which brought him open rebellion against the Roman Catholic Church. His behavior, his attitude towards the Church, and his preaching were crucial to encourage and bring many souls to eternal ruin."(The Woman of the Sanctus: A Life Open to Heaven, Sister Maria Serafina del Sacro Cuore)<----

(08-14-2016, 04:53 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]If anything Rome ought to be unapologetically Roman Catholic. That's the only way to remain credible,to be the one church that remains the same. Sadly,I've found scant evidence that this is the case and so this is just one more nail in the coffin of Roman Catholic credibility for me.

Just remember the eclipse of the Catholic Church by false shepherds has long been prophesied.

Prophecies from The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich (1870) by Rev. Carl Schmoeger, C.SS.R.

"...Then I saw that everything pertaining to Protestantism was gradually gaining the upperhand, and the Catholic religion fell into complete decadence.
...I saw how baleful would be the consequences of this false church. I saw it increase in size; heretics of every kind came into the city of Rome. The local clergy grew lukewarm, and I saw a great darkness... I had another vision of the great tribulation. It seems to me that a concession was demanded from the clergy which could not be granted. I saw many older priests, especially one, who wept bitterly. A few younger ones were also weeping. But others, and the lukewarm among them, readily did what was demanded. It was as if people were splitting into two camps

"I saw that many pastors allowed themselves to be taken up with ideas that were dangerous to the Church. They were building a great, strange, and extravagant Church. Everyone was to be admitted in it in order to be united and have equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, sects of every description. a true communion of the unholy with one shepherd and one flock.  ... But God had other designs. ... I saw again the new and odd-looking church which they were trying to build. There was nothing holy about it . People were kneading  bread in the crypt below ... but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of our Lord, but only bread. Those who were in error, through no fault of their own, and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion. ..I saw deplorable things All sorts of abominations were perpetrated there. Priests allowed everything and said Mass with much irreverence. I saw that few of them were still godly... All these things caused me much distress."

"In the centre of Hell I saw a dark and horrible-looking abyss, and into this Lucifer was cast, after being first strongly secured with chains; thick clouds of sulphurous black smoke arose from it's fearful depths and enveloped his fearful form in the dismal folds, thus effectually concealing him from every beholder. God Himself had decreed this; and I was likewise told, if I remember right, that he will be unchained for a time fifty or sixty years before the year of Christ 2000."
(08-14-2016, 03:49 PM)ermy_law Wrote: [ -> ]I really don't see the problem with selling indulgences. Why shouldn't there be an indulgence for a work of sacrificial giving that is done alongside the usual conditions for an indulgence? If the interior intention is good, then providing for the upkeep of the church is meritorious.

Sure, it was abused, but every good work is subject to abuse, especially when the people aren't taught properly.

Selling indulgences is strictly wrong (ie a bishop grants an indulgence if you pay him 20 bucks to do so).  It would be simony.  There's a degree of separation when alms are given or help building a church is provided as the condition of an indulgence.  As you note that's fine in itself. The problem was, when money was involved it was subject to abuse as well as giving bad appearances, so indulgences involving money being given to the Church were forbidden as a practical matter, but not in principle.
Yeah, these things don't help Catholic identity--I think even your average low info Catholic doesn't think honoring Luther is a good idea.  And the Catholic clergy aren't the only ones caught up in this: the EOs are also celebrating the Reformation with the Protestants.

https://www.lutheranworld.org/news/luthe...nniversary
(08-15-2016, 09:15 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, these things don't help Catholic identity--I think even your average low info Catholic doesn't think honoring Luther is a good idea.  And the Catholic clergy aren't the only ones caught up in this: the EOs are also celebrating the Reformation with the Protestants.

https://www.lutheranworld.org/news/luthe...nniversary

Hosted by the Ecumenical Patriarchate; color me shocked! I mean, it's right in the title!  :LOL:
An excellent UK spoof of this:
"Germany’s Catholic bishops have praised Mohammed as a "Gospel witness and teacher of the faith", and called for closer ties with Muslims. As part of the celebrations of the 1400th anniversary of the dawn of Islam, Bishop Gerhard Feige of Magdeburg, chairman of the German bishops’ ecumenical commission, has produced a 206-page report calling for Mohammed's mission to be seen in a more positive light."

http://ecclesandbosco.blogspot.co.uk/201...h-say.html

C.
Pages: 1 2