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Just came across this gem on facebook:

[Image: R529Qg.jpg]

I never really liked this guy after seeing him at the annual diocese men's conference once. I wasn't expecting a comedy routine. He should try comedy, he's pretty good at it.
Never heard of him. In any sense, traditionalists are all about a checklist of devotions.  If that's what he thinks, then he's highly misinformed.
"Ritualistic devotionals?"

How about the Apostle's Creed? The Athanasian Creed? What about the Te Deum? Or even the Hail Mary? Perhaps praying the Kathismata or praying the traditional Psalter is a "ritualistic devotional" as well?

There's nothing wrong with praying from the heart, but these prayers, hymns, and devotions are here for a reason; not because contemporary Protestants and their rock bands invented them.
I've heard of him, but he never really impressed me. He knows some moral theology, and he knows how to present it in a way that's entertaining to some (mostly the ones who don't think someone is worth listening to unless they're "cool"). Like most of his type, the liturgy doesn't seem to matter all that much to him. Sure it's God giving Himself to us in Holy Communion and that's "cool", but it's not nearly as important as warm fuzzy feelings and "having a personal relationship with God."  Please...that idea is foreign to Catholicism. It probably would fly for modern day Protestantism, but it's basically just a sort of reinvented Gnosticism. There is nothing wrong with "Praise and Worship" style music, as long as the words aren't heretical or anything, but it is not appropriate for Mass. if Matt Fradd disagrees, he ought to brush up on his knowledge of the liturgy.  Come to think of it, he ought to bruh up in his knowledge of the saints, many of whom kept their faith through their devotional practices in spite of not "feeling" anything.  He could start with Mother Teresa.
It has more to do with the fact that some of us are tired of clapping, drums, and protestant (or protestantized) hymns, when Jesus is being re-presented to His Father and appears on the altar.  We want Jesus to have the highest quality music possible, especially given what is going on. Mass isn't where we go to church to hang out with the community (although that's wonderful before or after Mass!), it's a re-presentation of Calvary. Can you imagine someone hammering some sticks on a drum set at Calvary, then leading the crowd into Amazing Grace or some other hymn reflecting protestant theology?

Of course we have a personal relationship with Jesus. He gives us His Body and Blood. How much more personal can you get than that?
(09-28-2016, 12:25 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: [ -> ]Sure it's God giving Himself to us in Holy Communion and that's "cool", but it's not nearly as important as warm fuzzy feelings and "having a personal relationship with God."  Please...that idea is foreign to Catholicism. It probably would fly for modern day Protestantism, but it's basically just a sort of reinvented Gnosticism.

I have to strongly disagree with you here. While Catholicism is definitely not just a "Jesus and me" religion, having a real "relationship" with God is not only not "foreign to Catholicism," it is imperative. There are big differences in how Protestants and Catholics go about having such a "relationship" (I dislike that word here, but the concept stands); Protestants, relying on Sola Scriptura and rejecting Tradition and the Magisterium, act as their own popes, while Catholics have dogmas and doctrines which must be accepted in order to remain Catholic. Our liturgy is one handed down to us through the millennia and not made up on the spot. Its focus is on the Offering of the Son to the Father for the remission of our sins, and not a rock concert or Broadway show. But if we don't "allow Christ into our hearts," as Protestants would put it (while Catholics would use words like "metanoia" or what not), it's all for naught on a personal, subjective level.

Following the moral laws and obeying the precepts of the Church will not save us; they are aids, means of grace that we're commanded to fulfill. Nor will merely intellectually recognizing the Truth of Who Christ is save us. We're saved not by "Faith alone" ("Sola Fide") nor by works. A page about all this: Conversion of the Heart
No, Matt Fradd, the reason why we dismiss and belittle "Praise and Worship" music is because it is Protestant.

It originated outside of the Church of Jesus Christ in some non-denominational Protestant sects in the 1960's and 1970's in the U.S. among
the totally heretical "Jesus People" movement.  http://www.christianitytoday.com/history...ution.html

It's simply not Catholic, conveys no holiness, does not have the Catholic spirit, and would be looked at as alien by Catholic saints for all of history. Catholics don't need to
ape anything from Protestantism, especially not anything having to do with worship.  He needs to get that straight right now. 

Of course Catholics should be uncomfortable with it.  "Personal Relationship with Jesus"? ...Give me a break with those false appeals. 

He converted after a World Youth Day so understandably he feels the need to defend this phenomenon, and Novus Ordo parishes give the impression
that it is all perfectly normal. 

While this Novus Ordo priest thinks "Praise and Worship" has some place in the Church (I totally disagree), he does a good job dismantling it:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/cult...rship.html
(09-28-2016, 08:03 AM)BC Wrote: [ -> ]Of course Catholics should be uncomfortable with it.  "Personal Relationship with Jesus"? ...Give me a break with those false appeals. 

Yeah, 'cause St. Teresa of Avila and St. Catherine of Siena had no relationship with Jesus. It just irks me to no end that some people think that having orthodox liturgy means that one doesn't really have a relationship with Christ. It's completely asinine. Unless we get together and roll around in the aisles, babble in tongues, and watch the groovy rock concert with our hands in the air, we just don't "get" Jesus, don't have a real prayer life, don't have "a relationship" with Him, and are in all ways less holy than the folks who like acting like weirdos.

https://youtu.be/TNPQQWpkdW8
(09-28-2016, 08:41 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, 'cause St. Teresa of Avila and St. Catherine of Siena had no relationship with Jesus. It just irks me to no end that some people think that having orthodox liturgy means that one doesn't really have a relationship with Christ. It's completely asinine. Unless we get together and roll around in the aisles, babble in tongues, and watch the groovy rock concert with our hands in the air, we just don't "get" Jesus, don't have a real prayer life, don't have "a relationship" with Him, and are in all ways less holy than the folks who like acting like weirdos.

Yes, there are few things that irk me more than the way this phrase is used, a very recent phrase I might add, and worse yet having ostensible Catholics telling "traditional Catholics" that they don't really have a "personal relationship with Jesus" unless they are dancing to rock and roll melodies with shallow theology lyrics to guitars and strobe lights, only favors Protestant criticism of Catholics.  I can only assume guys like Matt Fradd don't realize the implications of what they are saying.  Because really they are condemning all of the Catholic saints for lacking this essential thing.

He also doesn't realize that he and people like him are being deceived and are promoting a prophecied ecumenical Counter Church.

“ I saw how baleful (evil; harmful) would be the consequences of this false church. I saw it increase in size; heretics of every kind came into the city (of Rome) … Once more I saw the Church of Peter was undermined by a plan evolved by the secret sect (Masonry), while storms were damaging it.”

“The Church is in great danger… I see that in this place (Rome) the (Catholic) Church is being so cleverly undermined, that there will hardly remain a hundred or so priests who have not been deceived. They all work for destruction, even the clergy. The great devastation is now at hand.”

“When I saw the Church of St. Peter in ruins, and the manner in which so many of the clergy were themselves busy at this work of destruction – none of them wishing to do it openly in front of others – I was in such distress that I cried out to Jesus with all my might, imploring His mercy. Then, I saw before me the Heavenly Spouse… He said, among other things, that this translation of the Church from one place to another meant that She would seem to be in complete decline. But She would rise again; even if there remained but one Catholic, the Church would conquer again because She does not rest on human counsels and intelligence. It was also shown to me that there were almost no Christians left in the old acceptation of the word.”

“The Church is completely isolated and as if completely deserted. It seems that everyone is running away.”

“I saw what I believe to be nearly all the bishops of the world, but only a small number were perfectly sound…”

“Then I saw that everything that pertained to Protestantism was gradually gaining the upper hand, and the Catholic religion fell into complete decadence…”

“I saw that many pastors allowed themselves to be taken up with ideas that were dangerous to the Church. They were building a great, strange, and extravagant Church.

[b]Everyone was to be admitted in it in order to be united and have equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, sects of every description. Such was to be the new Church…But God had other designs. ... I saw again the new and odd-looking church which they were trying to build. There was nothing holy about it .[/b

-Anne Catherine Emmerich (Source: The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich – Carl E. Schmoeger)
This reminds me a lot of that thread about the Feminization of Christianity article that was recently posted, about how the image of "Jesus the lover" had permeated Christianity. I mean, he's comparing how he talks to God with how he talks to this wife, but they are NOT equivalent relationships.

Like I pointed out in that other thread:

(08-23-2016, 02:33 PM)PrairieMom Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, wow.

This passage really got me (so far, I'm not right to the end yet):

Quote:In the late 20th and early 21st centuries “praise and worship” music replaced hymns in many Christian churches. But while Murrow sees some good in this type of music, overall he thinks “P&W” may have even less appeal to men than the hymns of old, and “has harmed men’s worship more than it has helped”:

“the evidence seems to indicate that, while P&W is very appealing to some men, it’s a turnoff for many more. Before P&W, Christians sang hymns about God. But P&W songs are mostly sung to God. The difference may seem subtle, yet it completely changes how worshippers relate to the Almighty. P&W introduced a familiarity and intimacy with God that’s absent in many hymns.

With hymns, God is out there. He’s big. Powerful. Dangerous. He’s a leader.

With P&W, God is at my side. He’s close. Intimate. Safe. He’s a lover.

Most people assume this shift to greater intimacy in worship has been a good thing. On many levels, it has been. But it ignores a deep need in men.”

I have noticed this. I've been struggling picking music for Mass this summer, because so much of the music these days (and I'm talking hymns found in books like the Catholic Book of Worship, put out by the Conference of Canadian Bishops) is about our relationship with God (and fundamentally about us), and not about God Himself. The old stuff - I'm talking chants and texts coming out of middle ages - is about God and His deeds and power, etc. The orientation is very skewed.

Take, for example, a translation of the text from the 6th century from Fortunatus.

Sing, my tongue, the song of triumph,
Tell the story far and wide;
Tell of dread and final battle,
Sing of Savior crucified;
How upon the cross a victim
Vanquishing in death he died.

Or the Pange Lingua:

Sing, my tongue, the ageless story
As the cross is lifted high!
Tell how Christ our Saviour conquered
When fro us he came to die.
As a victim in the battle
Death's dominion to belie.

Or O Sacred Head Surrounded (St. Bernard of Clairvaux, 11th century)

O sacred head surrounded
By Crown of piercing thorn.
O bleeding head, so wounded,
Reviled and put to scorn.
The pow'r of death comes o'er you,
The glow of life decays,
Yet angel hosts adore you,
And tremble as they gaze.

All those are listed in the "Lent/Good Friday" section. (my book actually doesn't have any old texts outside of that season, on the most part)

Compare that to a modern hymn for the same season:

(With Our God, Joncas, 1983, based on Psalm 130)

With our God there is mercy
and the fullness of redemption
God will save us from trials
and will answer whenever we call

Out of the depths I cry to you,
I cry to you, O God.
God, open your ears and hear my voice,
attend to the sound of my plea.

See the difference?

P&W music isn't, at it's core, about God, but about us and our relationship with Him. But that's not what worship should be, I don't think. The current dictionary definition of "worship" is " (noun) the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity;  (verb) show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites." Notice that no where in that definition does it state that it's about sitting around chatting about your relationship, which is what fundamentally P&W is.
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