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Like venomous animals.  There are predatory animals that can capture prey without the use of venom, why did he create animals that needlessly aid more pain to the situation?  In reality, why did he create animals, like the prey, whose only purpose was to be ripped apart and feed bigger, hungrier animals?  Or, at least, why did he create them with brains advanced enough to experience fear, pain and suffering?

Does the Church have an answer for this other than "Because He's God, he can do as he see fit"?  Since this would not be a result of Original sin, it would have to be something that God designed this way.  How does this not call his love into question?  Or, if he is loving, does it become reasonable that God means something altogether different by what we understand from love?  So different, that it is almost pointless to call it love to begin with?
(03-11-2017, 08:38 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]Like venomous animals.  There are predatory animals that can capture prey without the use of venom, why did he create animals that needlessly aid more pain to the situation?  In reality, why did he create animals, like the prey, whose only purpose was to be ripped apart and feed bigger, hungrier animals?  Or, at least, why did he create them with brains advanced enough to experience fear, pain and suffering?

Does the Church have an answer for this other than "Because He's God, he can do as he see fit"?  Since this would not be a result of Original sin, it would have to be something that God designed this way.  How does this not call his love into question?  Or, if he is loving, does it become reasonable that God means something altogether different by what we understand from love?  So different, that it is almost pointless to call it love to begin with?

He didn't. All of the things you write about are a consequence of the Fall.

Isaias 65:17-25

For behold I create new heavens, and a new earth: and the former things shall not be in remembrance, and they shall not come upon the heart. But you shall be glad and rejoice for ever in these things, which I create: for behold I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and the people thereof joy.  And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people, and the voice of weeping shall no more be heard in her, nor the voice of crying.  There shall no more be an infant of days there, nor an old man that shall not fill up his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.

And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruits of them.  They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of my people, and the works of their hands shall be of long continuance.  My elect shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth in trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their posterity with them.  And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will hear; as they are yet speaking, I will hear.  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together; the lion and the ox shall eat straw; and dust shall be the serpent' s food: they shall not hurt nor kill in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.


Isaias 11:1-9

And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise up out of his root.  And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him: the spirit of wisdom, and of understanding, the spirit of counsel, and of fortitude, the spirit of knowledge, and of godliness.  And he shall be filled with the spirit of the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge according to the sight of the eyes, nor reprove according to the hearing of the ears.  But he shall judge the poor with justice, and shall reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: land he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. And justice shall be the girdle of his loins: and faith the girdle of his reins.

The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them. The calf and the bear shall feed: their young ones shall rest together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp: and the weaned child shall thrust his hand into the den of the basilisk. They shall not hurt, nor shall they kill in all my holy mountain, for the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the covering waters of the sea.

In that day the root of Jesse, who standeth for an ensign of the people, him the Gentiles shall beseech, and his sepulchre shall be glorious.


ETA:  The effects of the Fall  extend to all creation. It's more than just the fall of man, man being in the position of needing a Redeemer.
Plus, I think it was St. Francis de Sales who said that nature is always hinting at us.

So nature is always helping us to understand Truth.

The predatory animals chasing it's prey can help us understand the unseen spiritual warfare that is raging.
Because God formed man as the pinnacle of creation it makes sense that when he fell those below him would experience effects of the fall as well. Thus animals became predators, bacteria became disease, even plants were changed in response to the disbalance in the universe. Prior to the fall the world was in harmony, mans disobedience broke this harmony and evil entered the world for the first time the effects of which would grow worse over millennia. I think this imbalance caused a chain reaction of a sort and so God in his mercy gave animals means to survive in the new world, allowing them to adapt in response to their environment.
(03-11-2017, 10:05 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]The wolf and the lamb shall feed together; the lion and the ox shall eat straw; and dust shall be the serpent' s food: they shall not hurt nor kill in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.


The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them. The calf and the bear shall feed: their young ones shall rest together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp: and the weaned child shall thrust his hand into the den of the basilisk. They shall not hurt, nor shall they kill in all my holy mountain, for the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the covering waters of the sea.

Is there a strong reason that these should be taken as more than allegory?

(03-11-2017, 10:47 PM)Dominicus Wrote: [ -> ]Because God formed man as the pinnacle of creation it makes sense that when he fell those below him would experience effects of the fall as well. Thus animals became predators, bacteria became disease, even plants were changed in response to the disbalance in the universe. Prior to the fall the world was in harmony, mans disobedience broke this harmony and evil entered the world for the first time the effects of which would grow worse over millennia. I think this imbalance caused a chain reaction of a sort and so God in his mercy gave animals means to survive in the new world, allowing them to adapt in response to their environment.

If this is true, then since death existed before man, it would mean original sin would necessarily have had to have been retroactive.  It also begs the question, if Adam's sin was able to cause a physical change in the natural order, why doesn't every other sin have the same power?

Where did viruses come from?  Their sole purpose is to corrupt life and bring about death.  They have no apparent good purpose in themselves, and it is still debated if they are even life at all.  Is it permitted to believe that Satan has the power to create?  If not, what possible reason could God have had for the creation of viruses?
I wouldn't say that original sin was retroactive, more so that it so drastically effected creation to the point that we could say that it corrupted our very perception of time. After all we were originally supposed to live forever and experience time as those in heaven do. Thus i would suggest that things aren't always so linear as a typical creationist might think with a definite point at which sin entered the world.

For the second problem I would say it's because the first instance of a change in an environment is usually much more noticeable than subsequent changes of the same kind. All sins are a sort of offspring of that original sin and thus are more of an extension than individual occurrences. Besides I suppose its possible that subsequent sins might have that same power but God prevents them from taking full effect, like how when sin originally hit its peak God allowed most of humanity to be destroyed in natural disasters during the flood. Afterwards he vowed never to do so again so instead we have only minor disasters.

As for viruses (viri?) I have no idea. I don't know enough about them to make a real hypothesis. I would guess that they are a form of life or perhaps just another part of nature that would have served a completely different purpose before the fall, who knows?

I don't believe Satan has the power to create ex nihilo, only to corrupt that which has already been made. He was an angel and thus doesn't have the power to perform miracles but he still possesses some control over physical reality. Perhaps he changed viruses from something else.

Sorry if my posts don't make a whole lot of sense but I'm just giving my ideas.
There is a medieval tradition of allegorizing nature, reading nature as though it were a book (the Book of Creation. When we do this, keeping in mind that nature is deictic, pointing to higher truths, and signifying things for us to understand, creation looks much different. Trees are no longer just trees, but are naturally inclined towards heaven; panthers signify Christ, in the sweetness of their fragrance that lures other creatures to them, as Christ draws in sinners and furthermore resembles a panther in his gentle disposition and his multicoloured brilliance. Owls are not just owls but Jews, alone among birds for their insistence on dwelling in darkness and forsaking the Light.

The hyena, which imitates the sounds of a human vomiting so as to lure dogs (its prey in Africa), is a figure for Israel, which worshipped idols. Weasels, which are inseminated during copulation through the ear and give birth through the mouth, represent those who listen to divine truths but pay them no need.

What are apes? In my estimation, even though they are products of evolution and our close kin, that is not the full story. Why are apes? For us to marvel at, I think, and to see in them the near-equivalent of a human being but one deprived of the spark of divinity in the rational soul. In the chimpanzee, we see depravity, malice, but also much tenderness, but, ultimately, a failed attempt at a human being, an animal utterly trapped in the here-and-now of stimulus and response, without the gift of language or an interior life to contemplate his place in the cosmos and to grasp anything transcending the cycle of brute emotion, bodily appetites, ingestion and excretion.
(03-11-2017, 11:43 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2017, 10:05 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]The wolf and the lamb shall feed together; the lion and the ox shall eat straw; and dust shall be the serpent' s food: they shall not hurt nor kill in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.


The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them. The calf and the bear shall feed: their young ones shall rest together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp: and the weaned child shall thrust his hand into the den of the basilisk. They shall not hurt, nor shall they kill in all my holy mountain, for the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the covering waters of the sea.

Is there a strong reason that these should be taken as more than allegory?

He's describing Heaven, and Heaven is a place of perfection, so no...
(03-11-2017, 11:47 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]Where did viruses come from?  Their sole purpose is to corrupt life and bring about death.  They have no apparent good purpose in themselves, and it is still debated if they are even life at all.  Is it permitted to believe that Satan has the power to create?  If not, what possible reason could God have had for the creation of viruses?

Satan doesn't have the power to create. No one does but God. But Satan can take what exists and "malform" it (if that's a verb).
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