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How do you spiritually survive liberal Catholicism? Let's say, you just went to another Guitar-Mass. The topic of the homily was: "I am ok, you are ok!". The intercessory prayers were about left-wing political topics like the abolition of borders or the scandal of Brexit. Only seconds after mass ends, people storm out and behave noisy as if it were the Oktoberfest….and you have no other Parrish to go (or if there is, it is even more liberal).

All those things don't really affect my faith. God's existence and love doesn't depend on the way other people behave toward him. But what I really find spiritually toxic for myself – there seem to be only two choices how to react toward this reality:

1. Accept it – which seems unacceptable.

2. Criticize it, at least in your mind. And here comes the real danger. Every time I criticize (mentally) my parrish priest, who is also my confessor and therefore my spiritual superior, or my fellow Christians, I notice that there is always spiritual pride mingled into the rightful indignation. That is not to say that it is an objectively prideful act to criticize any spiritual superior because of liturgical abuses or heterodox teachings. Not at all. But I know myself good enough to recognize the "demon of pride" when it influences me. And it is always there in this situation.

So, how do you handle this without falling into this trap? Can you give me some advise?

The most helpful strategy for me, untill now, is the following counsel by the Eastern-Orthodox hermit Paisios:
Quote:Be the Bee and not the Fly

Some people tell me that they are scandalized because they see many things wrong in the Church. I tell them that if you ask a fly, “Are there any flowers in this area?” it will say, “I don’t know about flowers, but over there in that heap of rubbish you can find all the filth you want.” And it will go on to list all the unclean things it has been to.

Now, if you ask a honeybee, “Have you seen any unclean things in this area?” it will reply, “Unclean things? No, I have not seen any; the place here is full of the most fragrant flowers.” And it will go on to name all the flowers of the garden or the meadow.

You see, the fly only knows where the unclean things are, while the honeybee knows where the beautiful iris or hyacinth is.

As I have come to understand, some people resemble the honeybee and some resemble the fly. Those who resemble the fly seek to find evil in every circumstance and are preoccupied with it; they see no good anywhere. But those who resemble the honeybee only see the good in everything they see. The stupid person thinks stupidly and takes everything in the wrong way, whereas the person who has good thoughts, no matter what he sees, no matter what you tell him, maintains a positive and good thought.

+ St. Paisios of Mt. Athos, “Good and Evil Thoughts,” Spiritual Counsels III: Spiritual Struggle
Been there, done that, got the medal.

It's quite sad how deeply ingrained the Spirit of Vatican II has become. Mos people aren't behaving irreverently out of malice, but simply because that's how they've been brought up.

If another parish isn't an option, I'd start small; conduct yourself with the utmost reverence to be a role model to others, and *gently* correct others nearby. For example, ask the guy next to you to not talk during Mass, and give the reason. Bring it up with the pastor and maybe even the bishop.
Man that's a tough one.  If you can be the light amongst the darkness, then do it.  I'd also would try talking with the priest, if he doesn't respond well, then go to the bishop.

I'm sorry you have to suffer, but you are not alone.

God please come to the aid of your Church, so many are crying for bread and are handed stones.
It's a huge struggle.  The cognitive dissonance is very real, and can bring on a crisis, not necessarily in Jesus Christ as God,but in the Roman Catholic Church's claims to be the one true Church. That's been my experience.

The times I've managed to live through the crises was only because I was keeping up an interior life on my own, and only going to the most reverent church I could find.  It also helps to really ponder sooner of the deeper mysteries of Catholicism like the Real Presence, the Incarnation, or whatever else helps you get away from church politics or polemics. It's really about keeping an active prayer life,and deepening your own knowledge of the mysteries of the faith in your own.

We mustn't forget that, like Roger Buck says so eloquently in his new book, there is an indefinable but undeniably real experience of grace in confession and communion that you can experience, even in the modern Roman Rite.  if you sincerely avail yourselves to the sacraments you'll recieve the grace to keep up your struggle,although it won't be easy.
Most Novus Ordo mass here in Rome still have their dignity, as long as you avoid the one with kids and scout songs.
I go at the latin one 99% of the time, so I have a little island of peace, but outside is not so terrible as those clown mass video you can find on youtube.

The real problem is when you meet modernists IRL, that really is difficult to accept for me.
I share literally nothing with them, I've heard unbelievable things from them, I'm not even sure they actually believe in Jesus.
I'll be honest, the only thing I can do is to avoid them or risk punching one in the face.
And it almost happened when one started virtue signaling by calling me uncharitable because I told him he was an apostate (he was lecturing people about the "atheism of Jesus" on the cross)
I don't even want to mention what I heard about homosexuality.
Thank you all for your helpfull answers.

Quote: I'd also would try talking with the priest, if he doesn't respond well, then go to the bishop.

The priest is actually more conservative than our Bishop and our parrish is less liberal than other parrishes nearby (one of them has dislocated the Tabernacle into a grey little box on the right side of the curch, while behind the altar now there is a big piece of modern art showing two androgyn, genderless, bald persons loking each other into their eyes).

Quote:I'm sorry you have to suffer, but you are not alone.

Actually, I am not really "suffering" because of mediocre liturgy. I do have regular access to all the sacraments, and the mentioned abuses do not always occur. Most of the times, the mass is celebrated in a relatively reverent manner, although always with a very Protestant touch. 


Of course, missing reverence towards the Eucharist is always a serious matter, but it isn't more serious just because it occurs in my presence than it would be if it occured somewhere else (as long as I can't change it).

But what makes my heart bleed is the compassion toward my fellow Christians because they are deprived of actual Christianity...and do not even know it. Some short time ago I reverted to the faith and am very enthusiastic about it....I would like to share this joy, but everytime I try to talk about it with someone, believer or unbeliever, there seems to be a kind of wall that will not let any information through. Everyone thinks he knows what Christianity is about - a lukewarm, weekly cultural event with some references to a nice spiritual energy that was preached by some even nicer Jewish guy 2000 years ago - and is therefore not interested in it.

I think here in Germany maybe the biggest problem - even bigger that Vatican II - is that for more than 100 years virtually all German priests have been educated by theological faculties in statal (i.e. secular) Universities. You can't imagine anything more destructive for the faith than an exegesis course in a German university. Not because they teach the truth, but because they are enormously biased against supernatural truth. The gospels? Written long after the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D., by anonymous authors! (both these "facts" are just made up theories) Miracles? Didn't really happen, are purely symbolical! Exorcisms? Psychological diseases!  So imagine generations of priests going through this type of "formation"....what kind of homolies or katechesis will you get?


(06-04-2017, 10:09 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you all for your helpfull answers.

Quote: I'd also would try talking with the priest, if he doesn't respond well, then go to the bishop.

The priest is actually more conservative than our Bishop and our parrish is less liberal than other parrishes nearby (one of them has dislocated the Tabernacle into a grey little box on the right side of the curch, while behind the altar now there is a big piece of modern art showing two androgyn, genderless, bald persons loking each other into their eyes).

Quote:I'm sorry you have to suffer, but you are not alone.

Actually, I am not really "suffering" because of mediocre liturgy. I do have regular access to all the sacraments, and the mentioned abuses do not always occur. Most of the times, the mass is celebrated in a relatively reverent manner, although always with a very Protestant touch. 


Of course, missing reverence towards the Eucharist is always a serious matter, but it isn't more serious just because it occurs in my presence than it would be if it occured somewhere else (as long as I can't change it).

But what makes my heart bleed is the compassion toward my fellow Christians because they are deprived of actual Christianity...and do not even know it. Some short time ago I reverted to the faith and am very enthusiastic about it....I would like to share this joy, but everytime I try to talk about it with someone, believer or unbeliever, there seems to be a kind of wall that will not let any information through. Everyone thinks he knows what Christianity is about - a lukewarm, weekly cultural event with some references to a nice spiritual energy that was preached by some even nicer Jewish guy 2000 years ago - and is therefore not interested in it.

I think here in Germany maybe the biggest problem - even bigger that Vatican II - is that for more than 100 years virtually all German priests have been educated by theological faculties in statal (i.e. secular) Universities. You can't imagine anything more destructive for the faith than an exegesis course in a German university. Not because they teach the truth, but because they are enormously biased against supernatural truth. The gospels? Written long after the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D., by anonymous authors! (both these "facts" are just made up theories) Miracles? Didn't really happen, are purely symbolical! Exorcisms? Psychological diseases!  So imagine generations of priests going through this type of "formation"....what kind of homolies or katechesis will you get?

If you're in Germany, don't even bother with the dioceses.  Find a Latin Mass parish, and go there exclusively.
I don't have that problem because I am no longer forced to go to a N.O. Mass, anywhere,  I can now access all the traditional rites, given that the trad movement has been growing in my region, so even if I go visiting somewhere, it will be likely that a Latin Mass and the authentic preaching to go along with that, will be forthcoming.

However, there have been earlier times when I had to do that, or I was pressured for social reasons to attend, or I had prior, ill-advised musical and other practical commitments.  Unfortunately, when I did hear the kind of nonsense the OP puts up with, it did make me angry, and I'm not a person who hides my anger well.  Others noticed, and it created tension between the virtual protties there, and me. 

Some Protestants are actually better and more consistently formed than most N.O. Catholics, in that the former, if they remain within one tradition -- say, Presbyterianism, Episcopalianism, etc. -- are learning a consistent moral theology; by contrast, modern Catholics are learning an eclecticism that is an unappealing blend of independent Protestantism (maybe a less traditional Protestantism than established versions), ecumenism, and nondescript, secular-inspired "spirituality."  The most maddening thing about it is this "rudderless" aspect, making it difficult to locate an actual faith.  In itself that conflicts with Catholic Tradition, which is nothing if not consistent, unified, clear, and dependable.

Eventually, I was rescued by a trad parish, who actually intervened in helping me to extricate myself from this bland non-faith of modernity and cowardice.  Now, when I occasionally have to go back to the modern parish, I am fortified by my faith and completely unaffected by the vagueness and unorthodoxy which I hear.  I have found that fortifying oneself with the contrary authenticity you already recognize is a tremendous aid to enduring any necessary visit or revisit to the NOM.

As to your fellow Catholics (please call them Catholics; the word "Christian" is a deliberate attempt on the part of certain Church leaders to end distinctions between Protestantism and Catholicism), find ways to catechize them privately, if you can.  Do this in a questioning manner, "Oh, is it your impression that the ___ doctrine has changed from what the Church has always stated about it?"  Then gently refer them to the actual teaching.  Sometimes this works after an already -established friendship/social relationship of some kind with such people.  You can go to coffee, lunch, and have a safe place to have such a conversation away from the modernist influence directly in the parish location.  In other cases (such as mine), email conversations can redirect such misinformed baptized Catholics to the correct teaching. 
That is good advice you quoted OP. The priest's homily (at a TLM) last week was really insistent on this: instead of becoming obsessed with criticizing the pope, bishops or 'liberal catholicism', how about becoming obsessed with criticizing yourself and your faults and overcoming them?

It was great. I've only seen a few of the father's homilies, and I had thought they would be all sweet and gentle. This one was fire and brimstone!

My heart goes out to you!

Here's what I pray for help in doing if I must go to the NO:

Sit way up front so as not to be distracted/disgusted/dismayed etc. by the many casual and irreverent actions of many of the people in front of me.

Before Mass, make it my intention to console our Blessed Lord in the Tabernacle and to keep Him company in the midst of it.

Offer up my sorrow and discomfort for everyone else there.

Intensify my efforts to focus and meditate on the readings, the Crucifix, the Tabernacle, the Altar, the statues, the Stations.

Give God thanks for an opportunity to suffer with Him.

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