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In the book of Revelation it says that there are 12,000 people going to heaven from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This would mean 144,000 in total, which itself says. They then say that an innumerable of gentiles will go to heaven. Is this an accurate reading of what is literally said, and should it be taken such as face value?
(06-23-2017, 07:07 AM)GoodKingWenceslas Wrote: [ -> ]In the book of Revelation it says that there are 12,000 people going to heaven from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This would mean 144,000 in total, which itself says. They then say that an innumerable of gentiles will go to heaven. Is this an accurate reading of what is literally said, and should it be taken such as face value?

12 was a number symbolizing completeness in the Old Testament, so it should be seen figuratively.  It probably shouldn't be taken to mean all Jews will be saved, but there is some kind of intention to suggest the complete salvation of the nation of Israel (not the current State of Israel, but the Jewish people).  Perhaps it is suggesting that in the end, salvation will be complete when even the Synagogue of Satan itself is redeemed and grafted back into Christ.
It's taken to mean a great number, a great number of Jews will be saved that can be numbered; yet the multitude of Gentiles saved will be so enormous that it cannot possibly be counted.
(06-23-2017, 02:55 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]It's taken to mean a great number, a great number of Jews will be saved that can be numbered; yet the multitude of Gentiles saved will be so enormous that it cannot possibly be counted.

Does that "multitude" include even those billions of gentiles who are not baptized Roman Catholics?
Traditional Jewish numerology would interpret this number not as 12 * 12000, but as

12 squared times 1000

12 signifies the 12 tribes of Israel. All(!) the 12 tribes.

1000 signifies completeness/fulness.

The underlying message is the same as in the feeding of the 5000. When the people, who were members of the 12 tribes of Israel, finished eating, there were 12 baskets of food left. The baskets were abundantly full (=1000).

It does not mean that the number of saved Jews is limited. The baskets were overflowing both in the feeding of the 5000 Jews (Mt 14), as in the later feeding of the 4000 gentiles (Mt 15).
It is this passage that leads Jehovah's Witnesses to claim that only 144,000 "anointed" go to heaven and every other good JW gets to live on a paradise earth that they have to clean up after Jehovah destroys all non-JWs at Armageddon. But if taken literally, then that means that Charles Taze Russell, the JW founder, won't go to heaven as he's not Jewish and not part of any of the tribes.
(06-25-2017, 07:40 AM)MichaelNZ Wrote: [ -> ]It is this passage that leads Jehovah's Witnesses to claim that only 144,000 "anointed" go to heaven and every other good JW gets to live on a paradise earth that they have to clean up after Jehovah destroys all non-JWs at Armageddon. But if taken literally, then that means that Charles Taze Russell, the JW founder, won't go to heaven as he's not Jewish and not part of any of the tribes.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had years ago when I was still Orthodox. A JW had come to the door and we were talking. She asked if I had read the Book of Revelation. I said Yes. Then she started to set the '144.000 hook'/ She asked, 'Do you know that only 144,000 people are going to heaven'? I answered, 'Yes, and they all belong to the One, Holy, Catholic and Orthodox Church. Everyone else is going to heel'. That ended the conversation rather abruptly! :LOL:
I wonder what JWs have to say about Jesus saying, "Heaven and earth will pass away," since they believe in the paradise earth thing. I know their translation of the Bible plays fast and loose with words (their John 1:1 says, "...and the Word was a god"), so maybe it says something completely different. I don't know.