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Quote:Originally Posted by commenter
The EF had much more of a supernatural emphasis. There was a recognition that, during this Mass, Heaven was somehow participating in our midst, and that we were somehow participating in the ongoing liturgy of Heaven. People applaud the increased "participation" of the laity under the OF, as if verbalizing were the only kind of important participation.

But in the EF there clearly is more "entering into" the Sacrifice of the Mass with the Heart, mind, and emotions. In the OF there is more lay verbalizing, but for most not an appreciation that there is something crucial going on here, something that touches Heaven and Earth like nothing else. Of course every valid Mass does that, but the EF makes it clearer, more explicit to the laity that this is happening. It is not less participating, but a different kind of participating.

Response -

Quote:Actually, the OF is every bit as supernatural as the EF.

The emphasis in the EF was God transcendent.

The OF brought in an emphasis of God imminent to balance with the transcendent. And so the heart, mind and emotions are more fully brought to focus on the Mass - and in particular the mind, as, prior to the release of the OF, only a minority had missals, and very few understood enough Latin to be able to translate any parts of the Mass, let alone be able to converse in it.

"Participation" in the EF prior to the entry of the OF consisted for the majority of individuals of saying their rosary, or reading pamphlets of private devotions int he larger part; some just "made their obligation".

We might remember that the Mass started with the Last Supper - which was the celebration of the Passover, with its specific rituals. Your waxing eloquent about the EF could cause someone to criticize Christ - and those who followed him for a number of generations - who did not have the EF.

There was a reason the 2,000+ bishops of the world wanted to increase participation in the Mass - they knew there were problems.
"Your waxing eloquent about the EF could cause someone to criticize Christ - and those who followed him for a number of generations - who did not have the EF."

I can't see anyone saying this in the reverse. "Your waxing eloquent about the OF could cause someone to criticize Christ among all those who followed him for generations who did not have the OF."

...why would praising the beauty of the EF ever make someone think, "Wow. I never had this. I guess I better take it out on Jesus"?

It's the "Catholic" Answers forms... what did you expect?
Quote:Actually, the OF is every bit as supernatural as the EF.

The emphasis in the EF was God transcendent.

The OF brought in an emphasis of God imminent to balance with the transcendent. And so the heart, mind and emotions are more fully brought to focus on the Mass - and in particular the mind, as, prior to the release of the OF, only a minority had missals, and very few understood enough Latin to be able to translate any parts of the Mass, let alone be able to converse in it.

"Participation" in the EF prior to the entry of the OF consisted for the majority of individuals of saying their rosary, or reading pamphlets of private devotions int he larger part; some just "made their obligation".
No, everything about the Latin Mass points to heaven and Calvary.

If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema.

(Council of Trent, Session 22, Canon 7)

Quote:We might remember that the Mass started with the Last Supper - which was the celebration of the Passover, with its specific rituals. Your waxing eloquent about the EF could cause someone to criticize Christ - and those who followed him for a number of generations - who did not have the EF.

There was a reason the 2,000+ bishops of the world wanted to increase participation in the Mass - they knew there were problems.

No, the new Mass wasn't part of VII. It came along later. The new Mass was an on the spot fabrication of the Mass. The Latin Mass developed organically over 1500 years of tradition. I can't get my mind around how it is you can even begin to compare the two.
(06-23-2017, 07:40 PM)Paul Wrote: [ -> ]It's the "Catholic" Answers forms... what did you expect?

I had good feelings today when I went to the site. It was in the Traditional Catholic subforum so I figured it would be okay. Feelings dashed!  :LOL:
(06-23-2017, 11:22 PM)GRA Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-23-2017, 07:40 PM)Paul Wrote: [ -> ]It's the "Catholic" Answers forms... what did you expect?

I had good feelings today when I went to the site. It was in the Traditional Catholic subforum so I figured it would be okay. Feelings dashed!  :LOL:

Ugh CAF!
:eyeroll:
I wasn't banned from CAF, but I did have this odd exchange with someone:

Me: "I think that God, in his infinite majesty, would like it if we showed proper respect to him by wearing our Sunday best."

Someone else: "But shouldn't we let God determine what it means to show proper respect to Him, rather than deciding for ourselves? I think Jesus made it pretty clear in Matthew 23 what sort of respect He desires, and what sort is irrelevant. You might as well say that every time you make a sandwich, you're going to put two tomato slices on it to show honor and respect to the infinite majesty of God."

How wearing respectful attire at Mass and putting tomatoes on a sandwich are related, I'm not exactly sure.  ???
(06-23-2017, 11:22 PM)GRA Wrote: [ -> ]It was in the Traditional Catholic subforum so I figured it would be okay. Feelings dashed!  :LOL:

I suspect that just helps the moderators know where to look.