FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Catholic Charismatic Renewal - Movement
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal-Movement.

My thoughts:

Contra:
- it has a Protestant flavour about it and is a breeding place for heresies.

- it can cause pride and open people up to demonic influences (in the absence of spiritual discernment).

- If you have the TLM, the Rosary and mental prayer, you don't need this kind of spirituality.

Pro:
- Paul's Epistles seem to indicate that early Christian meetings, outside the context of mass, might have looked like very similar to Charismatic gatherings.

-if we believe in the infallibility of the NT, it is evident that ordinary Christians (not just saints) can have the charisma of healing and that the so called 'gift of tongues' is a real phenomenon caused by the Holy Spirit. There is no indication, neither in Scripture nor in Magisterial teaching, that these charismas have ceased to exist. Or is there?

Conclusion: I am extremely sceptical about the movement, but I am hesitant to condemn it outright. If there are healings occurring through the Holy Spirit in a gathering of Catholics, and I attribute it to the Devil (without any discernment), I would be guilty of 'blaspheming against the Holy Spirit' (Mk 3,22). (The original context of this quote was the Jews attributing Jesus' exorcisms and healings to the devil)
St. Augustine stated that speaking in tongues was for a time only, but has now passed away.

"In the earliest time the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spoke with tongues which they had not learned ‘as the Spirit gave them utterance.’ These were signs adapted to the time. For it was proper for the Holy Spirit to evidence Himself in all tongues, and to show that the Gospel of God had come to all tongues [languages] over the whole earth. The thing was done for an authentication and it passed away." (Ten Homilies on the first Epistle of John VI, 10).”

 “Why then is no one speaking in the tongues of all the nations just as he spoke who at the time was being filled with the Holy Spirit. Why? Because this was a sign that has been satisfied.” (Sermo 267, Chapter 3: [i]Chapter III. Why the Gift of Tongues is all but Withdrawn)[/i]

"whereas even now the Holy Ghost is received, yet no one speaks in the tongues of all nations, because the Church herself already speaks the languages of all nations: since whoever is not in the Church, receives not the Holy Ghost."(Tract. xxxii in Joan)

“Why then does the holy Spirit not appear now in all languages? On the contrary He does appear in all the languages. For at that time the Church was not yet spread out through the circle of lands, that the organs of Christ were speaking in all the nations. Then it was filled-up into one, with respect to which it was being proclaimed in every one of them. Now the entire body of Christ is speaking in all the languages.” 
St. Augustine. Enarratio in Psalmum. CXLVII:19 (147:19)

St. Thomas Aquinas:

“…whereas even now the Holy Ghost is received, yet no one speaks in the tongues of all nations, because the Church herself already speaks the languages of all nations: since whoever is not in the Church, receives not the Holy Ghost (Summa Theologica, II, II, 176) “

"We regard it  bluntly as one of the most dangerous trends in the Church in our time, closely allied in spirit with other disruptive and divisive movements threatening grave harm to unity and damage to countless souls." - Archbishop Dwyer, of Portland, Oregon, 1974

Emotionalism, hand-waving, jibberish that is an aping of Protestants who lack the sacraments.

New Testament speaking in tongues that was meant for a certain time was one thing.  This modern phenomenon, which has no continuity of any genuinity within the Catholic Church originated in its current form in American Pentecostalism, namely in Kansas in the early 1900's.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/mode...harism.htm

Nothing holy is coming from there or anything that Catholics should try to emulate. 

A few Catholic saints have had the gift in the past, but they did not ask for it.  What we see now are large bodies of Catholics asking for those "gifts" of the Holy Ghost that those Evangelical Protestant Pentecostals seem to have.... 

For further reading:

 http://catholicism.org/they-shall-speak-...-1617.html

Charismatics, Devils and Modernists

http://www.traditioninaction.org/bkrevie...maraes.htm

Fusion Catholicism

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopi...ennari.htm

The Truth about speaking in tongues 

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=313947&language=en

http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/c...enewal.htm

Fr. John Hardon  http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/...sm_002.htm

https://solutioproblematisomnes.wordpres...nt-page-1/

http://www.traditioninaction.org/bkrevie...Horvat.htm
I'd beware.  It sounds like a couple movements that the "For Catholics" warned about.  Links are here and here

Also, thanks for the info, Vox.
Quote:Contra
- it has a Protestant flavour about it and is a breeding place for heresies.

- it can cause pride and open people up to demonic influences (in the absence of spiritual discernment).

- If you have the TLM, the Rosary and mental prayer, you don't need this kind of spirituality.

The first two reasons against it are reason enough to avoid this stuff like the plague.  I can't see the spiritual benefit to plunging yourself into a prideful, heresy-prone prayer service where we are opening ourselves up to demonic influence (the shear fact that people have gotten possessed doing this should let you know to stay away!)
(07-20-2017, 04:35 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: [ -> ]- If you have the TLM, the Rosary and mental prayer, you don't need this kind of spirituality.
When this sentiment, or those like it, are expressed, they seem to be more of a projection of one's self onto others than anything else.  It doesn't take into account different personality types.

"The TLM and the Rosary meet my spiritual needs, therefore nobody else needs anything else either."

I, for one, would be completely lost without Byzantine liturgy and spirituality.  I suppose a Byzantinized TLM would probably suffice, but the coldness, or at least the coldness that I perceive, of the TLM relative to the Byzantine liturgies would leave me a hollow shell if that's where I was going on a regular basis.
I'll stop short of condemning it outright, as you have in the OP, because they still do present themselves for the Sacraments and some charismatic types I know are more frequent to the confessional than many trads I know. However, I will say that even just from an aesthetic standpoint, it is ugly and gross. I do not like it, I would not go and I would never recommend it to anyone.
(07-20-2017, 10:58 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-20-2017, 04:35 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: [ -> ]- If you have the TLM, the Rosary and mental prayer, you don't need this kind of spirituality.
When this sentiment, or those like it, are expressed, they seem to be more of a projection of one's self onto others than anything else.  It doesn't take into account different personality types.

"The TLM and the Rosary meet my spiritual needs, therefore nobody else needs anything else either."

The list was in no way meant to be exhaustive. Of course, you could add any kind of traditional practices to it (Byzantine Liturgy, Jesus prayer, fasting, etc.).

The Charismatics, on the other hand, seem to say that their method gives them some kind of special access to the Holy Spirit. That sounds a little bit sketchy.

But, what I am wondering about:

-Are some of the 'healing miracles' authentic miracles?

-Do some of these people actually channel the Holy Spirit when speaking in 'tongues'? Sure, most of them don't. But couldn't it be possible that 1 in 1000 does?
I'd honestly not be hesitant to condemn it. This "renewal" (as if the Holy Spirit has been absent since Apostolic times) is based on late 19th century fringe protestants, that sort of practice has no place in the Church. 
I really think that its popularity is due to most western Christians no longer having access to traditional Christianity, modern Catholics now only have a mere shadow or memory of it, which is why so many have been seduced into this practice (I think). Viewing the Christianity they have been exposed to as dry and lifeless as it often is, they will be pulled to something that they view has more spiritual power, but it is a gross replacement for the incredible power of living a traditional Christian life.
The behavior that is normal at these charismatic meetings is incredibly abnormal when it is compared to the worship of the Church and of the saints throughout history, this should be enough to reject it in my opinion.
(07-20-2017, 12:42 PM)JosefSilouan Wrote: [ -> ]But, what I am wondering about:

-Are some of the 'healing miracles' authentic miracles?

My first and only undeniable (or as close to undeniable without being absolute) experience of God was at a Charismatic healing mass while I was in RCIA.  If I had not had that experience, I probably would have completely abandoned Christianity when I began to seriously doubt it.  It, however, did not involve a healing of anything.
(07-20-2017, 12:42 PM)JosefSilouan Wrote: [ -> ]But, what I am wondering about:

-Are some of the 'healing miracles' authentic miracles?

-Do some of these people actually channel the Holy Spirit when speaking in 'tongues'? Sure, most of them don't. But couldn't it be possible that 1 in 1000 does?

JosefSilouan,

Have a look at two articles that may help to understand what is going on here.

The devil can simulate miracles and healings.

The renowned moral theologian of Salamanca, Fr. Royo Marin, lists 10 types of physical phenomena that can be falsified by the Devil. With God’s permission, the Devil can do any of the following:

1. Produce visions that are actually seen, or imaginative visions.

2. Falsify ecstasy.

3. Produce rays of light in the body and sensible heat.

4. Cause feelings of consolation and tenderness.

5. Instantaneously cure strange sicknesses that were caused by diabolical influence. Tertullian wryly notes that these were not authentic sicknesses in the first place, and the Devil really doesn’t cure – he just ceases to torment the individual. This is why even miracles worked in the causes of Saints had to be so carefully examined.

6. Produce the stigmata, as well as other kind of bodily extraordinary phenomena or objects such as crowns, rings, etc.

7. Simulate miracles and other phenomena such as levitation and bi-location.

8. Cause persons or objects to disappear from sight (by placing an obstacle in the line of vision or acting directly on the sense of sight).

9. Simulate locutions by means of sound waves or immediate action on the sense of hearing.

10. Produce body incombustibility by interposing some medium between the fire and the body of the individual. For example, there are documented cases of spontaneous human combustion, where a person bursts into flame for no apparent reason. The flames, very hot and localized, usually destroy most of the body but leave objects in close proximity to the person relatively unburned. Persons without faith are confounded by such incidents. The Catholic understands that this action falls within the powers of the Devil. 

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religio...litzin.htm

and:

Heretics Worked Miracles by the Aid of the Devil

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religio..._Magic.htm

Now, that is not to discount any and all or that God has worked to ultimately lead people to to Him if they are of good will, in spite of error, but the point is extreme vigilance and skepticism on most of what is going on here.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5