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Full Version: I think I'm finally ready for the jump to the TLM...
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What I'm about to describe has been happening for a while and there are many details that I will leave out for brevity's sake, if you have a question please ask.  At the outset I would like to say that I have always felt a pull for more  traditional Catholicism  but have probably not fully made the jump because to do so I would be worshiping outside of my immediate community and I didn't want to do that. That said...

I've been a member of the Knights of Columbus in my NYC council for only a short while perhaps just under two years. In that time I've been ran through all the degrees, fourth included, and as quickly as possible I was just elected to an office.  Upon speaking to the new Grand Knight over a beer about vocations (I'm older but completing an undergrad degree in the hopes of going on to seminary) he admits to me that he is married to a man. One of the stipulations to being in the KofC is you must be a practical Catholic, this man is not.

I talk to a priest from another diocese about it and he tells me to report him. This priest tells me "you are not a priest and the bar is not a confessional. Anything he tells you if it's damaging to the faith must be reported".  Because I respect the Grand Knight as a person and feel he might be serious about his faith I try to speak with him. That because of  our faith as well as the conditions of the KofC he is inviting scandal and he has in all probability excommunicated himself.  This went over like a lead balloon of course and I ended up being considered hateful and bigoted.  

As an aside I want to say when this happens to you, as I'm sure many of you are already aware, it's like discovering you're on another planet. Sure both you and the other person go to the same church and read the same bible but everything ends right there.

Anyways after this I speak to my pastor, a venerable Monsignor, figuring he'll be able to reason with this man and he will at the least endeavor to protect the Eucharist from an unrepentant sinner.  The Monsignor, who's been a priest for 40 years by the way, tells me that he never denies communion to anyone. He feels it's not his place to (?). Furthermore he feels so much sympathy for homosexuals because of their daily rejections that even though I am correct he will not talk to this man to instruct him. That we must wait until the Grand Knight has a change of heart and then he will talk to him. That this is the charitable thing to do. The monsignor also wanted me to not talk about it with the other Knights.  Then he says " you can still serve with in the Knights" and my my response is I have no choice but to resign my post because to serve with him is to only embolden him and confirm him. I'm trying to not bargain with my own sin let alone the sins of others.

I left that meeting incredibly confused and depressed. What I had realized from what he said ("You're correct but...") the Monsignor made the Gospel conditional, one set of rules and standards for homosexuals and one set for heterosexuals.  I wrote to an retired Bishop in another state who has a wonderful blog and long story short initially he said tell everyone why your leaving spare no detail and tell the Bishop. When I reminded him that I am aspiring to the Priesthood his tune changed right quick. He said that they would certainly hold it against me in the future.

Afterwards I send an email to the Monsignor telling him I am leaving the parish, that he has made the Gospel conditional and I simply cannot stay if he not going to do anything. He repeats that what he is doing he does for charity and that he is "saddened" to think  he is making the Gospel conditional.

I quit the council at a meeting telling fellow Knights that I have to leave over an "ethical incompatibility", I'm absolutely furious, and I cannot discuss it under orders from my spiritual advisor who is the Monsignor.  About a day or two later a member who witnessed my resignation wants to discuss something disturbing he's found online. What he has found is online reviews from the Grand Knight referencing his husband. He asks me if it's why I quit and I tell him the truth, everything.  At this point if it is on the internet and this poor guy just stumbled into it why should I stay silent?  I then tell two more members on in an email and one face to face.  The one I told face to face tells me "we'll get together and talk about it, we'll call Supreme. (headquarters)".   I never hear from this guy again until today and only because we run into one another. He's really evasive and I could tell the whole thing has made him nervous. I try to remind him that we're Catholics and that absolutely carries no water.


It's a mess. All I keep thinking is How do I trust these guys? How could I ever trust another priest? I mean I have no idea what the percentage is but it's got to be well over 50% homosexual. The church just seems totally gay at this point. Let me be clear: not gay and trying to live a Catholic life but gay with an agenda. Are the TLM churches any different? I can't imagine that the difference is really that stark.   And how can anyone who believes in any of this stuff who has digested all of the teachings on the matter give in so easily?  These are Catholic MEN?  There's not even any concern whatsoever for the Grand Knight's soul.   Let me say this: the clergy have taken the meekness that we owe to Christ and they have used it against us to foster wrong teachings and prey on children. It has made me sick.  Let it be a warning to all of you that when you volunteer or get involved in any way with the church make sure to best of your ability who you're getting into cahoot with.

Can you imagine, you go back to school, the pastor is your spiritual director and you tell him something like this and the response is "Shhhh".   Forget about being attacked from outside the church I don't feel any safer inside either.  I want to write to the Bishop but I don't think anyone there will be interested. People who I've told are actually upset that I would continue trying to fight, as though I am the one living a lie.  Or they say some pithy thing like "I'll pray on it" like God didn't give them a mouth or "Perhaps God wants this Grand Knight".  At this rate I'LL be excommunicated before the Grand Knight is.


What is going on?
What's going on?  Well, the answer that comes straight to my mind is simple: NuChurch.

While I have not been involved in the exact circumstances as you describe, the one commonality that I can relate to is the effeminacy which some men, including priests, act.  And don't be fooled by others; you are doing the right and proper thing.  You have done nothing wrong, and are standing up for what is blatantly right and proper.

My suggestion to you is most definitely find a TLM priest or parish.  I believe you will find an entirely different atmosphere, one more aligned with your sensible thinking.

Good luck.
One other thing I should mention.  What you describe (or rather, the reactions you are getting) sounds very familiar to stories told in Michael Rose's Goodbye, Good Men.  If you do decide to go to a Novus Ordo seminary, odds are that what you are experiencing now will only increase, and may likely lead to your dismissal therefrom if you speak up.  It's happened to others before you.  Another good reason to look for a TLM parish.
The Church is in a crisis: of vocations, of catechesis, etc. As Roger Buck says, the Church has ups and downs; we're currently in a down. But we know that the Church will rebound just as it has over the different crises and heresies that have attacked the Church through the ages. We see the beginnings of this rebound even now; more and more young people are embracing orthodoxy and tradition.

The older priests tend to be less orthodox than the younger priests. For example, there are 4 parishes in my area. My parish has a retired monsignor who is just like the monsignor that you described, our pastor is the average so called "conservative" priest, and 2 very orthodox, young parochial vicars. It's like a chain returning to orthodoxy: The older monsignor (and a lot of priests ordained in the 70s) is super liberal, the almost middle-aged pastor is "conservative" (mostly orthodox), and the two recently ordained priests are utterly orthodox. It's the same with the other parishes in my area. All the older priests are wishy-washy; all the younger priests are orthodox. 

What diocese do you live in? Some diocesan bishops and their priests are notoriously liberal. 

The gates of hell won't prevail against the Church, but that doesn't mean that the Church doesn't have its low points. There will be scandals, heresies, schisms, bad priests, etc until the end of time. Even Pope Benedict IX was most likely gay and he sold the Papacy, among the other sexually deviant popes from the middle ages. The Church is Holy, but that doesn't mean that individual members of the Church always will be. Popes can be wicked, but the Church will rebound. It always has. 

Pray for the Church, for all priests and bishops, for the pope, for young people: anything that is relevant to the Church being revitalized with orthodoxy.
The gay agenda in the Church, with what seems like every priest is a "crypto-liberal" homosexual, has really made me want to walk away from Catholicism-and perhaps religion-all together. How would I even know whether my priest, confessor, or spiritual director isn't some closeted looney liberal who is having sex with his parishioners, other priests, or seminarians? Gaydom has done nothing but lead to spiritual and physical death, and the disintegration of the priesthood as a whole. I realize we are all sinners, but the priesthood in my eyes is full of effeminate, feeble, and dissenting men.


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(08-07-2017, 09:42 PM)Sequentia Wrote: [ -> ]The gay agenda in the Church, with what seems like every priest is a "crypto-liberal" homosexual, has really made me want to walk away from Catholicism-and perhaps religion-all together. How would I even know whether my priest, confessor, or spiritual director isn't some closeted looney liberal who is having sex with his parishioners, other priests, or seminarians? Gaydom has done nothing but lead to spiritual and physical death, and the disintegration of the priesthood as a whole. I realize we are all sinners, but the priesthood in my eyes is full of effeminate, feeble, and dissenting men.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Satan has it in his interest to create scandal in the Church. Obviously, Satan wants us to move away from Catholicism, better yet all religion. Our priests should be holy men, but that doesn't mean that they always are. Priests are under attack moreso than anyone else. A priest can usually cause more scandal than a lay person. How many people probably left the Faith due to Pope Benedict IX, for example?

For me, the holy saints and martyrs, Eucharistic miracles, and intellectual soundness of the Faith outweigh any scandals, however many there may be.

The Donatists were scandalized, but that doesn't mean that they were right.
I like the TLM and if that is where you want to go then I would not argue with you. However I should warn you that if you are boing because you want to escape the abuses that you are seeing in the Novus Ordo you are in for a great disappointment. There in the TLM communities you will find scandals, abuses and other problems that you would never imagine. St. JOhn of the Cross said that one who is in the Church will see and hear many things. St. John pf the Cross also recommended silence. The Abba Arsenius said, "I have regretted many things that I have said, but I have never regretted having remained silent."
I think that what is best is to pray for the virtue of prudence. Sometimes it would be wrong to remain silent in the face of evil, but not always. Remember the prayer, Lord please help me to change the things that I can, and help me to accept the things that I cannot, and please give me the wisdom to know which is which.
It's just very disorientating. It's one thing to understand and know that the church has scandals and that it will never fall  but it is quite another when you run right into it with out expecting to. It's a minefield.  When I discussed this with an older friend he brought up many good ideas, things about letting clergy speak to him about the group Courage and   and so forth, but what are you to do when those mechanisms fail to respond purely because the people administrating them don't believe in the mechanism themselves. In this case the Monsignor is well aware of the group and still won't deal with it.

  I'm also understanding of the fact that if I go to a TLM community I will certainly find more of the same just a different shape. What I'm hoping to find is more people aligned with the true teachings of the church. People are always going to try to make it up for themselves but it seems from my limited experience this is the default in a NO parish.

It's my opinion that the Church has operated with silence on our part most of the time. Our silence is expected at this point and they've been taking it for assent for many misdeeds, again my opinion. What really breaks my heart is to see men (women too)  just too afraid to deal with issues like this. This may be societal by way of American life post Obergefell  but you can't discount the church's request of our silence. 

The silence someone here referenced here by a person is prayerful and respectful of things you can't change or have to endure, like a lingering disease not like clergy run amok.  The idea of "I've never regretted having remained silent" can be wildly taken out of context. Tell that to parents who have been told to stay silent after finding out their children have been abused. There's Silence and then there's silence. We have to be prudent not to confuse them.
(08-07-2017, 02:48 PM)AugustineNYC Wrote: [ -> ]I wrote to an retired Bishop in another state who has a wonderful blog and long story short initially he said tell everyone why your leaving spare no detail and tell the Bishop. When I reminded him that I am aspiring to the Priesthood his tune changed right quick. He said that they would certainly hold it against me in the future.

This same outcome happened to me.  My territorial parish habitually abuses the Eucharist and I resigned from the parish on the advice of a bishop, sending a private letter to the pastor explaining why.  Shortly thereafter, the Diocese dismissed me from their discernment programme.
(08-08-2017, 02:43 PM)Steven Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-07-2017, 02:48 PM)AugustineNYC Wrote: [ -> ]I wrote to an retired Bishop in another state who has a wonderful blog and long story short initially he said tell everyone why your leaving spare no detail and tell the Bishop. When I reminded him that I am aspiring to the Priesthood his tune changed right quick. He said that they would certainly hold it against me in the future.

This same outcome happened to me.  My territorial parish habitually abuses the Eucharist and I resigned from the parish on the advice of a bishop, sending a private letter to the pastor explaining why.  Shortly thereafter, the Diocese dismissed me from their discernment programme.

An absolute tragedy.  And they wonder why the priesthood is in the state it is.  Unfortunately, this has been going on for quite some time.  The book I mentioned in an earlier post, Goodbye, Good Men, which specifically addresses these situations, came out in 2002.... some 15 years ago.  I am of the opinion that not much, if anything, has changed since then.  In fact, it has just gotten worse.
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