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Michael Voris appeared on Louder with Crowder, a political conservative youtube channel, on July 27. The show was only suppose to be an hour or so, but it lasted for about two.

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/arti...en-crowder

TL;DW (didn't watch): Crowder floundered. The segment doesn't appear on LwC's youtube channel or on the website. This may be due to that it's still being edited under an hour and it will appear later on. Or that it was such a disaster on Crowder's half that he and his staff decided to not publish. But Church Militant has.

For those that aren't familiar with Louder with Crowder here's some background. Steven Crowder, on and off stand-up comedian and the host of the show, is a non-denominational Christian alongside his producer Not Gay Jarred (that's what he's called on the show as an inside joke). I've been a listener of Crowder for the past few years who I believe is a smart guy when it comes to pointing out the hypocrisy and inane logic of the left. He's also a friend of Jordan Peterson. But when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church he sorta tests my nerves. He isn't as well-read or insightful about his Christianity as he is about politics - one time I actually commented when he was debating an atheist that he was a much better political commentator than an apologist. Another incident, though I can't exactly remember what brought it up, was how he sort of off the cuff said he had a good friend who finished a doctorate at Notre Dame where he supposedly debunked Roman Catholicism. I found this ironic given Notre Dame has its foundations in Catholicism. This friend also appeared on the show as a guest talking about Christianity, though not exactly about Catholicism, as well as a producer later on (a couple of times he was wearing a Notre Dame shirt). One of his staff members, Courtney Kirchoff, is a Catholic and despite Crowder's disagreements with the RC he remains respectful of her faith and every now and then she writes about her faith on the show's website.
I watched it, great debate, Voris could have made a lot more arguments. Crowder though really didn't seem very well versed in Christianity. I don't know much about him, so I do have a question to anybody who knows, does he ever change his opinion? He didn't seem like he was coming into the debate with a willingness to change his mind. 


He has a specific viewpoint, basically what the popes called Americanism, and it's definitely partly anti-Catholic. Another guy who'll use Catholics to get what he wants then betray them to his cult of liberty.

(I do like him though and am open to correction on this view)
(07-31-2017, 01:32 PM)GoodKingWenceslas Wrote: [ -> ]I watched it, great debate, Voris could have made a lot more arguments. Crowder though really didn't seem very well versed in Christianity. I don't know much about him, so I do have a question to anybody who knows, does he ever change his opinion? He didn't seem like he was coming into the debate with a willingness to change his mind. 


He has a specific viewpoint, basically what the popes called Americanism, and it's definitely partly anti-Catholic. Another guy who'll use Catholics to get what he wants then betray them to his cult of liberty.

(I do like him though and am open to correction on this view)

bold: Does he change his opinion on RC? If so, I believe, as you said, he has a specific viewpoint on RC. He mentioned in the segment was that he was formally schooled in Catholic schools from the ages of 3-18 in Quebec, where he did imply he had some bad experiences, where Catholicism was sort of supported as the official religion of the Canadian province (some Canadian who's familiar with this please correct me if I'm wrong), but overall it wasn't doing so well, whether as pulling in new members or as state institution. Because of this, as goes the reasoning in Crowder's mind, Catholicism just doesn't work in general. Voris commented on the specific years he attended which I can't exactly recall what he said. Alongside this it's clear that Crowder is coming from a viewpoint that does see the Roman Catholic Church as just another denomination with the usual Protestant/skeptic rebuttals, and that its claim that it is the one true church is a mixture of misreadings of the Bible verses and arrogance. Crowder quotes the Bible where it presents Jesus saying that anyone who believes in me (read: as long as you believe in Jesus Christ regardless if you're a Catholic or Protestant) that your salvation is guaranteed, hence the claim that Roman Catholic Church is the true church is false. I can't comment on whether he came into the discussion with a willingness to change since at one point he directly stated he believed the Catholic Church was false in reply to Voris' rebuttal on how would Jesus Christ allow men to create a false church in the context of other false religions being created e.g. Islam. This is probably why Crowder sees himself as a non-denominational Christian. In this way he's safe that he isn't attached to mother of all false churches, Roman Catholicism, and safe that he isn't attached to a man made, evil religion e.g. Islam.

I want to point out I was reading the comment section on Church Militant's article and one poster said he, Crowder, sounded like a liberal when debating Voris. I share the same sentiment since, in my observation, even those who are traditional Christians of the non-Catholic stripes do put on their "liberal cap" when trying to denounce the Roman Catholic Church. So even in political circles, where one would think it's okay to be a Catholic, Catholicism has a target on its back. Just as Jesus said it would.
(07-31-2017, 12:04 PM)GRA Wrote: [ -> ]TL;DW (didn't watch): Crowder floundered. The segment doesn't appear on LwC's youtube channel or on the website. This may be due to that it's still being edited under an hour and it will appear later on. Or that it was such a disaster on Crowder's half that he and his staff decided to not publish. But Church Militant has.
 
Has anyone checked at CRTV.com?  I've followed Crowder for a while now, and after youtube started demonetizing conservative youtubers he was short of show funding add revenue so he partnered with CRTV as a revenue producer as he could put his content behind their paywall. He still uploads to Youtube b/c he said he didn't want to resort to that as he liked the freedom of not answering to corporate superiors but I think about 70-80% of what he produces is on CRTV, behind their paywall. 
Crowder was a 2-3 hour weekly show but sometime in the last year he discovered sufficient demand to make a daily 1ish hour show so when youtube's demonetization hit he went daily on CRTV. He actually uploads slightly more content to youtube now than he previously did when he was fully reliant on youtube. 
Crowder occasionally mentions that he is a Christian but almost always says that he is concerned that if he brings his religion into the show it would add an element that would likely alienate more viewers than it would attract. As such I would understand if he reserved this particular segment for his more die-hard viewers and as a crafty ploy to get a chunk of his Catholic viewership to subscribe and begin regular 10$/month purchase of his show along with a slew of other content.
(As a Catholic I sympathize b/c often when discussing best practices with seculars I've noticed that so long as I never mention religion they remain reasonable, but often, as soon as I do seculars dismiss me and my arguments which I try to deliver with the utmost charity and clarity. Sometimes if they know I'm religious they'll even, in my experience, try to make it about religion rather than reason so they can have their excuse to dismiss me. And I have often felt that many Catholic sites should have a version of their site that can be accessed by the click of a button that simply removes all arguments that hinge on a creator, so as to appeal to those who don't want to feel preached at while reading watching. Surely some disagree with me on this minor point, and that is fine. I wish all readers all the best. Thank you for sparing the time to read this. Peace)
(07-31-2017, 04:10 PM)GRA Wrote: [ -> ]He mentioned in the segment was that he was formally schooled in Catholic schools from the ages of 3-18 in Quebec, where he did imply he had some bad experiences, where Catholicism was sort of supported as the official religion of the Canadian province (some Canadian who's familiar with this please correct me if I'm wrong), but overall it wasn't doing so well, whether as pulling in new members or as state institution. Because of this, as goes the reasoning in Crowder's mind, Catholicism just doesn't work in general.
The Church was never established in Quebec. I have no idea how old Crowder is, since I neither listen to talk radio, nor watch YouTube videos of that sort, but unless he is in his late 60s or older, the Church in Quebec had basically been destroyed by the Council and the Révolution tranquille (Quiet Revolution), which Wikipedia concisely and accurately describes as 'a period of intense socio-political and socio-cultural change in ... Quebec , characterized by the effective secularization of society...'

So, it wasn't 'pulling in new members' in common with the Church in all Western countries, and since it was never a 'state institution', I have no idea what he was talking about.
(07-31-2017, 07:14 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-31-2017, 04:10 PM)GRA Wrote: [ -> ]He mentioned in the segment was that he was formally schooled in Catholic schools from the ages of 3-18 in Quebec, where he did imply he had some bad experiences, where Catholicism was sort of supported as the official religion of the Canadian province (some Canadian who's familiar with this please correct me if I'm wrong), but overall it wasn't doing so well, whether as pulling in new members or as state institution. Because of this, as goes the reasoning in Crowder's mind, Catholicism just doesn't work in general.
The Church was never established in Quebec. I have no idea how old Crowder is, since I neither listen to talk radio, nor watch YouTube videos of that sort, but unless he is in his late 60s or older, the Church in Quebec had basically been destroyed by the Council and the Révolution tranquille (Quiet Revolution), which Wikipedia concisely and accurately describes as 'a period of intense socio-political and socio-cultural change in ... Quebec , characterized by the effective secularization of society...'

So, it wasn't 'pulling in new members' in common with the Church in all Western countries, and since it was never a 'state institution', I have no idea what he was talking about.
 
Okay, thanks for this. Crowder is 29/30, a millennial. He mentioned his formal education very briefly since Voris asked where he was schooled, and I got the impression that Crowder was just using his Catholic school years as a way to pull whatever ammo he could against the establishment of Roman Catholic Church. He went from one aspect from his childhood to jumping to "And this is why the RC isn't true/doesn't work." It was a bizarre exchange that even Voris sort of looked confused. Though I don't know much history of Quebec and its formal education, I do know that if Quebec was the way it was as Crowder reports it - making Catholic schooling mandatory for everyone - then it would probably have the same fervor to Catholicism, as say Poland, but of course it's not known for such a thing despite the history of Catholicism and France. Crowder's reality was probably that there were more Catholic schools present than public ones. He mentioned nuns but I doubt there were more than three given the decline of vocations in N.America. The more we analyze history the more of Crowder's testimony seems mightily suspect.
@ SkyRise: Not sure about the politics of secular vs religious content, but from what I get Crowder did this type of segment because he was recently in Ireland for a wedding, a Catholic one, where supposedly he was approached by Catholics talking about Protestantism vs Catholicism, and that on youtube people were suggesting Voris as a guest.
Well, if he's 30, he was only 10 years old when the Constitution Act, 1867, was amended at the request of the 'Catholic' Provincial Government of Quebec to get rid of tax supported Catholic schooling (which Alberta still has despite only ca. 25% of the population being Catholic) and to replace it with French or English schools. So, if he went to Catholic schools after 1997, it was because his parents were paying for it.

And, I'm sure you're right about the nuns. The collapse of vocations in Quebec was, if anything, actually worse than in many places because of the rapid secularisation of society.
I just finished watching the video. They are both ineffective debaters. They were talking over each other so much, Crowder merely responding "No," with anything he disagreed with and Voris not staying on topic, veering off onto as many different tangents as there are Protestant denominations, that after about the 40th minute, it was virtually unproductive.  I think Voris would have made stronger arguments if, instead of just trying to explain everything, he would have just said "This is the reasoning for why the Church teaches this.  If that does not convince you, there is nothing I can say to you that will," and "It may not be clear from the Scripture itself that the Catholic teaching is what is implied, but the early Church - the one you referred to as just "The Church" - understood it the same way we do today, almost unanimously.  If we are wrong now, then NOBODY had it right then," and just leave it at that.