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Hi again all,

My sister and I were raised attending Novus Ordo Masses. Our church was pretty liberal at the time but we were too young to know it, and grew up loving the Gather hymnal and David Haas. By the grace of God, as we grew older we discovered the riches of traditional Catholicism and how the Novus Ordo pales in comparison to the Tridentine Mass. Now, attending any Novus Ordo Mass disgusts me. The disrespect for the Eucharist, the fluffy sermons, the heretical music, and the hideous modern church structures are all a thorn in my side, and I avoid them if at all possible.

Furthermore, Pope Francis is infuriating with his condemnation of President Trump and his policies as well as his profound distaste for Tridentine Rite Catholics. (Please note, I am by no means a diehard Trump fan, but Francis's aides have gone as far as to say that Hillary would have been a better choice.) I have even heard rumors that Francis is trying to squelch the Latin mass and make it illegal. His open-arms approach to gays and divorced people receiving Holy Communion is horrific, and his dismissal of mortal sin is nothing short of heresy. I know the Church has had some unsavory popes in the past, but I cannot comprehend how or why God would allow such an evil man to be the head of His Church. Francis is literally destroying the Church from the inside out.

What is a Catholic to do? Joining any other church would be schismatic, but at a time like this, with such an obviously corrupt and misguided man in St. Peter's Chair, would leaving the Church be justified? Or will Tridentine Catholics have to go underground to survive? I have not heard anything recently about the Dubia (I was hopeful that these 4 Cardinals would initiate a break-off from Francis's church so we wouldn't have to suffer under his reign anymore).

When you see a car plastered with Hillary and pro-abortion bumper stickers along with a sticker saying "This Pope Gives Me Hope," you know something is wrong. My sister and I are considering becoming Greek Orthodox but are unsure of what the ramifications of that would be. All I know is that I am tired of Francis and his idiotic papacy that is leading thousands of souls to hell.

Thoughts?
(08-13-2017, 02:43 PM)SacraCor714 Wrote: [ -> ]Hi again all,

My sister and I were raised attending Novus Ordo Masses. Our church was pretty liberal at the time but we were too young to know it, and grew up loving the Gather hymnal and David Haas. By the grace of God, as we grew older we discovered the riches of traditional Catholicism and how the Novus Ordo pales in comparison to the Tridentine Mass. Now, attending any Novus Ordo Mass disgusts me. The disrespect for the Eucharist, the fluffy sermons, the heretical music, and the hideous modern church structures are all a thorn in my side, and I avoid them if at all possible.

Furthermore, Pope Francis is infuriating with his condemnation of President Trump and his policies as well as his profound distaste for Tridentine Rite Catholics. (Please note, I am by no means a diehard Trump fan, but Francis's aides have gone as far as to say that Hillary would have been a better choice.) I have even heard rumors that Francis is trying to squelch the Latin mass and make it illegal. His open-arms approach to gays and divorced people receiving Holy Communion is horrific, and his dismissal of mortal sin is nothing short of heresy. I know the Church has had some unsavory popes in the past, but I cannot comprehend how or why God would allow such an evil man to be the head of His Church. Francis is literally destroying the Church from the inside out.

What is a Catholic to do? Joining any other church would be schismatic, but at a time like this, with such an obviously corrupt and misguided man in St. Peter's Chair, would leaving the Church be justified? Or will Tridentine Catholics have to go underground to survive? I have not heard anything recently about the Dubia (I was hopeful that these 4 Cardinals would initiate a break-off from Francis's church so we wouldn't have to suffer under his reign anymore).

When you see a car plastered with Hillary and pro-abortion bumper stickers along with a sticker saying "This Pope Gives Me Hope," you know something is wrong. My sister and I are considering becoming Greek Orthodox but are unsure of what the ramifications of that would be. All I know is that I am tired of Francis and his idiotic papacy that is leading thousands of souls to hell.

Thoughts?

I sympathize greatly, but know that schism is a mortal sin from the Catholic perspective. To make a momentous decision like leaving the Catholic Church, you need to be convinced that the Catholic Church itself, not just Pope Francis, is wrong. Pope Francis might give you a thumbs up, but Catholic tradition would without any doubt whatsoever call becoming Orthodox a formally schismatic act and a mortal sin. If you think the Orthodox Church is the true Church, then what the Catholic Church thinks doesn't matter – but if what the Catholic Church, and not just Pope Francis, thinks does matter to you, such a move is impossible.

The Orthodox are a lot like Catholics in comparison with Protestants, but there are several profound differences in belief and a zillion minor differences, beyond the ritual differences. You have to be prepared to reject the Sacred Heart, the Immaculate Conception, Eucharistic Adoration, statues, etc., in order to be Orthodox. You have to be prepared to tolerate divorced-and-remarried Orthodox receiving Communion, widespread laxity on contraception, etc. You will have to be prepared to give up virtually all second-millennium Catholic saints such as St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Franics of Assissi, St. Dominic, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Anthony of Padua, etc. Not just give them up, but be prepared to say they were, at best, material heretics.

It is a very, very serious move.
Hi SacraCor,

I have been involved with Eastern Orthodoxy myself and it is no escape. For a start, the service may not be in English, but in Greek, Slavonic, Romanian or some other foreign language. The priest may be from the mother country and not speak English. Orthodox churches are often focused around a particular ethnicity. 

The Orthodox Church practically speaking has no final authority. They claim that an Ecumenical Council is the highest authority, yet they haven't had one in over 1200 years. They tried to have a "Pan-Orthodox Council" last year but the Antiochians, Bulgarians, Georgians and Russians refused to go for various reasons and so the decrees weren't accepted by the whole Eastern Orthodox church (which is needed for a council to be rendered ecumenical). By the way, how can you tell if the entire church has accepted the decrees of a Council? If one person doesn't accept a Council, is it ecumenical? 

I know that there are a lot of problems with the Catholic Church in the modern world, but that is no excuse for leaving the Church. If you would like to discuss Eastern Orthodoxy further, please don't hesitate to PM me.
When you purview and study the history of the Church, you will know that 98% of Her time on Earth was littered with scandal and chaos. No two crisis are the same, they all have a serious effect of almost ruining the Church, but they always end up the same...the Church prevails and buries Her enemies.

The secret to a happy Catholic life, is to remember that when you die...it's your soul on the line, not the world...not the Pope, not the Church. You have control of living a pious life that will grant you eternal life, or living a wretched one and guaranteeing you an eternal damnation. You cannot control the world, the Pope, or the Church...and neither should you let events that are disheartening, control you and your spiritual life.

Yes you're tired of Francis, I am as well, we all are tired of His Holiness's shenanigans...but remember he is the Pope...not the President. American Catholics are too ingrained with the American-way of life, that they really struggle with monarchistic-thought.  The Papacy is a monarchical position, not a republican; and whether you like it or not, there can be terrible monarchs/popes as well as terrible presidents and governors. However, unlike a republican government, you cannot just fire him or impeach him...he is the Pope until he dies or abdicates. It is this reason the Church has endured for so long, because of the fact that the Papacy is not an elected position, you suffer the burden of the Throne of Saint Peter, until you die. All Catholics submit to the Throne of Saint Peter until we die.

We must pray for this Pope and do our best to be the Catholic we want others and Pope Francis to be. I'm going to take hard turn and direct a question to you...are you truly doing your best to be the best Catholic you desire others to be? If not, and honestly do reflect, then focus your energy on being that Catholic God has called us all to be, then you will eventually see that others will follow and eventually become the Catholic you expect them to be.

You know the military always presses that one leads by example, no amount of training, classes, or lectures will ever override one who follows the examples of their leaders. Do your part to be a leader and encourage others to follow. It's easy to complain about the world, it's much harder to change it, for changing the world, requires a change in the person.
Becoming Greek Orthodox would not solve your problems.  It would only add new ones.

God will solve the problem of Pope Francis.  Eventually, Pope Francis will die.  In the meantime, we pray, we go to Mass, and in general practice the Faith as best we can.   out their necks.  He certainly will have to answer for the confusion he sows, but just the same he is useful.  Francis is making the enemies of the Faith become bold enough to stick out their necks.  God willing, that will make it easier for a future pope to deal with them.  I can think of several priests and bishops, of varying degrees of notoriety, who I once thought were excellent.  In recent years, however, they have proven to be more politician than faithful witness of the Gospel. Pope Francis has also helped traditional Catholics like myself, become more traditional.

I am relatively new to tradition.  I became Catholic about 15 years ago.  I went to my first Traditional Latin Mass a few years after that.  It was nice.  The music was good.  I liked that the women wore veils, and the music was excellent.  I thought those things were "nice," for me.  I saw traditional Catholicism more as a pretty trinket that was nice to have amid one's collection of Catholic stuff than as a necessary thing to have.  If people wanted to receive communion in the hand, fine, it just wasn't for me.  If girls wanted to serve at the altar, fine, I just thought that I probably wouldn't have that if I were a priest.  I had a very relativistic outlook towards tradition.  When Francis became pope, and especially after the loss of my bishop, that all changed.  I saw more clearly that I couldn't be so relativistic.  Tradition is not just one path among equals.  It is the path of the True Church.  As St. Athanasius said, "even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

As much as I do not like Pope Francis, I suppose I can credit him for greatly strengthening my love for tradition.  Perhaps he's driven more Catholics closer to tradition who were as I was.
Furthermore, Pope Francis is infuriating with his condemnation of President Trump and his policies as well as his profound distaste for Tridentine Rite Catholics. (Please note, I am by no means a diehard Trump fan, but Francis's aides have gone as far as to say that Hillary would have been a better choice.) I have even heard rumors that Francis is trying to squelch the Latin mass and make it illegal. His open-arms approach to gays and divorced people receiving Holy Communion is horrific, and his dismissal of mortal sin is nothing short of heresy. I know the Church has had some unsavory popes in the past, but I cannot comprehend how or why God would allow such an evil man to be the head of His Church. Francis is literally destroying the Church from the inside out. 

Pope Francis can have whatever opinioin about who might be the better president of the United States. Hiowever he doesn't live here and he is not infallible on matters of political expediency. 
I would suggest that you not pay too much attention to rumors and innuendo. He has made a more generous offer to the SSPX than did his predecesor. When he was Cardinal Bergoglio of Buenos Aires he was more of a friend to teh SSPX and even helped them with their immigration problems with the Argentine government, something I doubt any North American or European bishop would do. 
While he has been engaging to gays and the divorced people he has also bee critized by the fashinable left because engagement doesn't equal approval of immoral lifestyles and change in Catholic beliefs and practices.
When you see a car plastered with Hillary and pro-abortion bumper stickers along with a sticker saying "This Pope Gives Me Hope," you know something is wrong. My sister and I are considering becoming Greek Orthodox but are unsure of what the ramifications of that would be. All I know is that I am tired of Francis and his idiotic papacy that is leading thousands of souls to hell. 

What you should do when you see the above is to pray for the conversion of the people.
What is a Catholic to do? Joining any other church would be schismatic, but at a time like this, with such an obviously corrupt and misguided man in St. Peter's Chair, would leaving the Church be justified? Or will Tridentine Catholics have to go underground to survive? I have not heard anything recently about the Dubia (I was hopeful that these 4 Cardinals would initiate a break-off from Francis's church so we wouldn't have to suffer under his reign anymore). 

Many times when God wants to lead us to greater holiness he will take away the consolations and joy that we felt going to mass and at other times of prayer. when you have to go to the Novus Ordo and you feel that you are suffering I would like for you to remember that Jesus suffered also. We follow a master who died on the cross for us and this cross is an opportunity for you to unite your sufferings with those of Jesus on His cross. 
Another thing to consider is the great love that Jesus has for us. During the time of St Teresa of Avila there was a priest who was living in sin. To St Teresa he persented a horrible appearance because when you are in the stae of mortal sin you are a slave to teh devil and this demon was pretty horrible looking. But then Jesus spoke to her from the Eucharist. He said that His love for her (St Teresa) was so great that he willingly came through the hands of this enemy of his just so that He could be with her. Jesus' love for you is so great that he comes to us through the hands of the Novus Ordo priests so that he can be with you in Holy communion.
Another thing to consider is that the Devil sees how appretiation that you have for wha tis beautiful an holy in the Catholic Church and he wants to seperate you from that beauty by spreading rumors and gossip and by exagerations of what teh Holy Father says so that there can be misunderstandings within the Catholic Church. If you were to leave teh Catholci Church tehn it would be a victory for the evil one in his quest to destroy souls.
(08-13-2017, 02:43 PM)SacraCor714 Wrote: [ -> ]Hi again all,

My sister and I were raised attending Novus Ordo Masses. Our church was pretty liberal at the time but we were too young to know it, and grew up loving the Gather hymnal and David Haas. By the grace of God, as we grew older we discovered the riches of traditional Catholicism and how the Novus Ordo pales in comparison to the Tridentine Mass. Now, attending any Novus Ordo Mass disgusts me. The disrespect for the Eucharist, the fluffy sermons, the heretical music, and the hideous modern church structures are all a thorn in my side, and I avoid them if at all possible.

Furthermore, Pope Francis is infuriating with his condemnation of President Trump and his policies as well as his profound distaste for Tridentine Rite Catholics. (Please note, I am by no means a diehard Trump fan, but Francis's aides have gone as far as to say that Hillary would have been a better choice.) I have even heard rumors that Francis is trying to squelch the Latin mass and make it illegal. His open-arms approach to gays and divorced people receiving Holy Communion is horrific, and his dismissal of mortal sin is nothing short of heresy. I know the Church has had some unsavory popes in the past, but I cannot comprehend how or why God would allow such an evil man to be the head of His Church. Francis is literally destroying the Church from the inside out.

What is a Catholic to do? Joining any other church would be schismatic, but at a time like this, with such an obviously corrupt and misguided man in St. Peter's Chair, would leaving the Church be justified? Or will Tridentine Catholics have to go underground to survive? I have not heard anything recently about the Dubia (I was hopeful that these 4 Cardinals would initiate a break-off from Francis's church so we wouldn't have to suffer under his reign anymore).

When you see a car plastered with Hillary and pro-abortion bumper stickers along with a sticker saying "This Pope Gives Me Hope," you know something is wrong. My sister and I are considering becoming Greek Orthodox but are unsure of what the ramifications of that would be. All I know is that I am tired of Francis and his idiotic papacy that is leading thousands of souls to hell.

Thoughts?

I have converted to Eastern Orthodoxy after being a trad Catholic for a few years. I hesitated for a while in joining the Orthodox Communion and bounced back and forth for a while. But ultimately I realised that all my reasons for not becoming Orthodox were superficial in nature. Things like, 'well, I won't have as easy access to the sacraments if I go Orthodox', or, 'I don't have any familial attachment to Greek language and culture', or, 'What if I want to join a religious order?' But none of these concerns could trump my realisation that the Eastern Orthodox were theologically correct in crucial areas and the Catholics weren't.
While i respect him in his authority I'm not a fan of Pope Francis, honestly he's an awful Pope. While he certainly makes living the faith difficult for me and many others, I choose not to let him rule over me to the extent that he chases me away from what is truly good and holy in the church. When I see Pope Francis mocking the traditions which Catholics around the world have held for centuries, making the church an object of ridicule, and sowing confusion and heresy it is infuriating to say the least. But no matter how terrible things get, I remember the words Christ said to St. Peter...
"Thou art Peter and upon this rock I shall build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it".

Pope Francis is just one Pope and one day he will die and another pope will replace him. There have been 265 Popes before him, one bad apple does not spoil the whole barrel. The same can be said for VII and so many other things.

I hear plenty of people threatening to leave the church to join the orthodox but what is this really solving? Most don't leave because they find fault with the Church itself but rather with its leaders. If you leave solely because of what Pope Francis and previous popes and church leaders have done, VII, etc. then you are letting Satan win. He wants to pull you away from the Church into schism, Satan is trying his very hardest to tear the church apart just as he has attempted to do so many times in the past. 

My advice is that even though its difficult, just keep looking straight forward and tend to your own spiritual life. Go frequently to the sacraments, make trips to the blessed sacrament, and pray to our lady and the saints in reparation for the wrongs in the church today. One day it will be over and new problems will pop up, that's just how it works and we have to deal with it, fleeing won't help.
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