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I deleted the post but it was up for half a day, I didn't say formal heresy, just heresy. 

The worst thing is I still don't know if my reasoning was unsound. 

Certainly a bad and confusing time to have joined the Church.  :(
(09-25-2017, 06:43 AM)GoodKingWenceslas Wrote: [ -> ]I deleted the post but it was up for half a day, I didn't say formal heresy, just heresy. 

The worst thing is I still don't know if my reasoning was unsound. 

Certainly a bad and confusing time to have joined the Church.  :(

The only way I could see this being a mortal sin is if you publicly accused the pope of being in heresy if you believed internally that he was not, and were aware at the time you did it that that was slander.  It's not a mortal sin to profess an error if you sincerely believe it to be the truth.
(09-25-2017, 08:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-25-2017, 06:43 AM)GoodKingWenceslas Wrote: [ -> ]I deleted the post but it was up for half a day, I didn't say formal heresy, just heresy. 

The worst thing is I still don't know if my reasoning was unsound. 

Certainly a bad and confusing time to have joined the Church.  :(

The only way I could see this being a mortal sin is if you publicly accused the pope of being in heresy if you believed internally that he was not, and were aware at the time you did it that that was slander.  It's not a mortal sin to profess an error if you sincerely believe it to be the truth.

Ah thanks, that makes sense. It was out of sincere belief. (based on the quotes about proselytism)
(09-25-2017, 08:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-25-2017, 06:43 AM)GoodKingWenceslas Wrote: [ -> ]I deleted the post but it was up for half a day, I didn't say formal heresy, just heresy. 

The worst thing is I still don't know if my reasoning was unsound. 

Certainly a bad and confusing time to have joined the Church.  :(

The only way I could see this being a mortal sin is if you publicly accused the pope of being in heresy if you believed internally that he was not, and were aware at the time you did it that that was slander.  It's not a mortal sin to profess an error if you sincerely believe it to be the truth.

I would agree, although some people (like Michael Voris) believe that us lay people have no authority to attack the pope without it being mortally sinful (during the Synod after an attack on the Pope he came out and said that he went to confession because of it -> He never did so again). His point being that attacking the pope can lead people into doubts about the Faith and as such should be avoided. I think that's nonsense, but maybe others would disagree. 

My thought is that as long as you're pointing out a valid error then it's not mortally sinful in any way. Of course, we as lay people must not act as an authority and it should be clear that our opinions are not binding on anyone. Only an ecclesiastical body can officially call someone a heretic.

I certainly think it's much easier as a lay person to point out the error and leave it at that. We can even say that this pope is an awful pope. I'd say we should be careful when calling any member of the clergy a heretic. I know on message boards its certainly easy to just say things that we may not actually say to people in person. However, our words on message boards can certainly impact people more than we realize. Going to the viewpoint of someone like Voris, calling the pope a heretic can make someone who is not Catholic or has a weak faith question whether they want anything to do with Catholicism. They may say, how can we say that the pope is a heretic and then follow him? Most people don't understand the nuances of canon law or the theology of the papacy. I think most of us, who while we vary on our knowledge of Catholicism are at the very least quite educated and capable of discussing our faith, aren't even educated enough on such matters. At the end of the day, we can point out the errors, pray for a better pope to come along in the future, and such. However, until the steps are taken to officially call the pope a heretic we have no authority to say so. So in such a sense, it's better to point out the error and pray for the best.
Quote:Only an ecclesiastical body can officially call someone a heretic.


I think that this essential to keep in mind when we are making any criticism of the Holy Father, and one that we shouldn't get confused about, nor let others accuse us.  We are not saying that Francis is a heretic.

Do I think that the Holy Father is promoting heresy?  Yes, and to an immense degree at that.
Do I think that the Holy Father is a formal heretic?     I don't know, I don't have any authority to make that claim.

You can make valid and just criticisms of the actions of the Popes, but we have no authority to judge whether or not he is a heretic, and we should not go around saying he has lost his Papacy because he is a heretic.
(09-25-2017, 08:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-25-2017, 06:43 AM)GoodKingWenceslas Wrote: [ -> ]I deleted the post but it was up for half a day, I didn't say formal heresy, just heresy. 

The worst thing is I still don't know if my reasoning was unsound. 

Certainly a bad and confusing time to have joined the Church.  :(

The only way I could see this being a mortal sin is if you publicly accused the pope of being in heresy if you believed internally that he was not, and were aware at the time you did it that that was slander.  It's not a mortal sin to profess an error if you sincerely believe it to be the truth.

Then what about all those canons declaring anyone anathema who professes error? Just because you sincerely believe it to be true, does not shield you from condemnation. Ignorance is the only shield that can protect you for willingly believe and profess error. If the Church has declared that something is evil, and yet, you sincerely, truly, in your heart of hearts, believe it to be true; you are still anathema.

I had said in the past, that I believed the Holy Father to be an antipope.  I had since confessed that sin.  Do I have doubts, yes, I still do.  But until a future pope, or an ecclesiastical body, declares his formal heresy, or irrefutable evidence surfaces to invalidate the last Papal Conclave, I will continue to pray for the Holy Father, who is Pope Francis.
(09-25-2017, 09:56 AM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-25-2017, 08:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-25-2017, 06:43 AM)GoodKingWenceslas Wrote: [ -> ]I deleted the post but it was up for half a day, I didn't say formal heresy, just heresy. 

The worst thing is I still don't know if my reasoning was unsound. 

Certainly a bad and confusing time to have joined the Church.  :(

The only way I could see this being a mortal sin is if you publicly accused the pope of being in heresy if you believed internally that he was not, and were aware at the time you did it that that was slander.  It's not a mortal sin to profess an error if you sincerely believe it to be the truth.

I would agree, although some people (like Michael Voris) believe that us lay people have no authority to attack the pope without it being mortally sinful (during the Synod after an attack on the Pope he came out and said that he went to confession because of it -> He never did so again). His point being that attacking the pope can lead people into doubts about the Faith and as such should be avoided. I think that's nonsense, but maybe others would disagree. 

My thought is that as long as you're pointing out a valid error then it's not mortally sinful in any way. Of course, we as lay people must not act as an authority and it should be clear that our opinions are not binding on anyone. Only an ecclesiastical body can officially call someone a heretic.

I certainly think it's much easier as a lay person to point out the error and leave it at that. We can even say that this pope is an awful pope. I'd say we should be careful when calling any member of the clergy a heretic. I know on message boards its certainly easy to just say things that we may not actually say to people in person. However, our words on message boards can certainly impact people more than we realize. Going to the viewpoint of someone like Voris, calling the pope a heretic can make someone who is not Catholic or has a weak faith question whether they want anything to do with Catholicism. They may say, how can we say that the pope is a heretic and then follow him?  Most people don't understand the nuances of canon law or the theology of the papacy. I think most of us, who while we vary on our knowledge of Catholicism are at the very least quite educated and capable of discussing our faith, aren't even educated enough on such matters. At the end of the day, we can point out the errors, pray for a better pope to come along in the future, and such. However, until the steps are taken to officially call the pope a heretic we have no authority to say so. So in such a sense, it's better to point out the error and pray for the best.

This is a very good way of putting it. 

Certainly we shouldn't call the Pope a heretic, though I think Michael Voris is so wrong on this type of thing. He takes this type of loyalty to the Pope and to Rome that doesn't see merited.
(09-25-2017, 11:35 AM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Then what about all those canons declaring anyone anathema who professes error?  Just because you sincerely believe it to be true, does not shield you from condemnation.  Ignorance is the only shield that can protect you for willingly believe and profess error.  If the Church has declared that something is evil, and yet, you sincerely, truly, in your heart of hearts, believe it to be true; you are still anathema.

I had said in the past, that I believed the Holy Father to be an antipope.  I had since confessed that sin.  Do I have doubts, yes, I still do.  But until a future pope, or an ecclesiastical body, declares his formal heresy, or irrefutable evidence surfaces to invalidate the last Papal Conclave, I will continue to pray for the Holy Father, who is Pope Francis.

I'm not saying it isn't still a serious sin, it may be.  But if one is not aware that what they are saying is an error, they can't be in mortal sin.  If the Church declares something evil, is the person who sincerely believes it anathema five minutes before it is declared evil?  That is an interesting question, though.  Does the Church anathematize anyone who holds to an error, even if they are sincerely unaware that it is an error?  Or does it only anathematize those who continue to propagate it after they have been told they were wrong?  If the Church anathematizes everyone in error regardless of the circumstances, that seems a little much.  But even if it does, being anathematized only says you are in serious sin, not that you are in mortal sin.  A lot of Latins conflate serious sin and mortal sin, meaning the former when they say the latter, or maybe they think all serious sin is automatically mortal.  But that's an error.
(09-25-2017, 12:11 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-25-2017, 11:35 AM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Then what about all those canons declaring anyone anathema who professes error?  Just because you sincerely believe it to be true, does not shield you from condemnation.  Ignorance is the only shield that can protect you for willingly believe and profess error.  If the Church has declared that something is evil, and yet, you sincerely, truly, in your heart of hearts, believe it to be true; you are still anathema.

I had said in the past, that I believed the Holy Father to be an antipope.  I had since confessed that sin.  Do I have doubts, yes, I still do.  But until a future pope, or an ecclesiastical body, declares his formal heresy, or irrefutable evidence surfaces to invalidate the last Papal Conclave, I will continue to pray for the Holy Father, who is Pope Francis.

I'm not saying it isn't still a serious sin, it may be.  But if one is not aware that what they are saying is an error, they can't be in mortal sin.  If the Church declares something evil, is the person who sincerely believes it anathema five minutes before it is declared evil?  That is an interesting question, though.  Does the Church anathematize anyone who holds to an error, even if they are sincerely unaware that it is an error?  Or does it only anathematize those who continue to propagate it after they have been told they were wrong?  If the Church anathematizes everyone in error regardless of the circumstances, that seems a little much.  But even if it does, being anathematized only says you are in serious sin, not that you are in mortal sin.  A lot of Latins conflate serious sin and mortal sin, meaning the former when they say the latter, or maybe they think all serious sin is automatically mortal.  But that's an error.

As I said "Ignorance" is one's only shield. Unless you truly don't know that something is evil, then you are in mortal sin. If the Church declared today something anathema, and you remember that you did that very thing last month. You are not in mortal sin, though it would now classified as a venial sin of grave matter. Still the penitent Catholic would still confess the sin, even though they do not need to.

Being anathematized is a mortal sin, it's worse. It's an ipso facto excommunication, which puts you outside of the Church and before, outside of Christian society. You were a leper, an untouchable. Only absolution can lift the excommunication.
(09-25-2017, 12:20 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]As I said "Ignorance" is one's only shield.  Unless you truly don't know that something is evil, then you are in mortal sin.  If the Church declared today something anathema, and you remember that you did that very thing last month.  You are not in mortal sin, though it would now classified as a venial sin of grave matter.  Still the penitent Catholic would still confess the sin, even though they do not need to.

Being anathematized is a mortal sin, it's worse.  It's an ipso facto excommunication, which puts you outside of the Church and before, outside of Christian society.  You were a leper, an untouchable.  Only absolution can lift the excommunication.

Then in those cases, I agree that ignorance is the only possible saving grace.
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