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Full Version: Can my wife and I go to her gay uncle's wake/funeral?
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(10-19-2017, 06:40 AM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-18-2017, 10:22 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I'm wondering how you know he engaged in sodomy.

Well, I left out something important: they civilly "married" a few years ago.

Also, on the topic of homosexuality, how are we defining "sodomy" here?  If youre referring to anally copulating: you're right, I have no idea.  But, is that really the deciding factor? (i.e. Whether they announced or were caught anally copulating?)

As things are most usually defined, it is the deciding factor when someone's referred to as a "sodomite." That isn't the only wrong thing about the situation, though, but using language that's accurate and not needlessly inflammatory is crucial, I think. Their twisting the concept of marriage is the thing you know about, the thing that's public, and that's bad enough. What they do or don't do in their bedroom is another story, and IMO, we should assume the best.
(10-19-2017, 07:29 AM)YouVoxClamantis Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2017, 06:40 AM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-18-2017, 10:22 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I'm wondering how you know he engaged in sodomy.

Well, I left out something important: they civilly "married" a few years ago.

Also, on the topic of homosexuality, how are we defining "sodomy" here?  If youre referring to anally copulating: you're right, I have no idea.  But, is that really the deciding factor? (i.e. Whether they announced or were caught anally copulating?)

As things are most usually defined, it is the deciding factor when someone's referred to as a "sodomite." That isn't the only wrong thing about the situation, though, but using language that's accurate and not needlessly inflammatory is crucial, I think. Their twisting the concept of marriage is the thing you know about, the thing that's public, and that's bad enough. What they do or don't do in their bedroom is another story, and IMO, we should assume the best.

Fair enough.

I guess my question, then, is: is it OK to attend a Catholic service for this man, when it's a known fact that they had a gay civil marriage?  It seems like there's a serious sin in here somewhere.  Surely any intercessory prayers thanking his "partner" are a grave sin against God?
(10-19-2017, 08:42 AM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]Fair enough.

I guess my question, then, is: is it OK to attend a Catholic service for this man, when it's a known fact that they had a gay civil marriage?  It seems like there's a serious sin in here somewhere.  Surely any intercessory prayers thanking his "partner" are a grave sin against God?

What are the prayers thanking his partner for?  It's one thing to say that the relationship was disordered and possibly sinful, but it is another to refuse to acknowledge that a relationship was there, defective as it may have been.  If the prayers are vague enough that they are only thanking him for being a loving and committed person in his life, I don't see why that would be sinful.  If the prayers specifically mention him as his husband, that's more of a concrete problem.

Regarding attending the service, I can't see how it could be sinful in any way. The only way it would be inappropriate for him to have a Catholic service would be if he was obstinate in rejecting the Church teaching to his dying breath. Did a priest come to see him and hear his confession before he died? If so, it should be presumed he confessed everything he needed to. Even if the people organizing the service are putting prayers in acknowledging his partner as his husband, this is separate from the question of whether he truly repented or not. If there is any doubt that he died in an obstinate refusal of repentance, you should go to the service and pray for him.
(10-19-2017, 08:42 AM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2017, 07:29 AM)YouVoxClamantis Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2017, 06:40 AM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-18-2017, 10:22 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I'm wondering how you know he engaged in sodomy.

Well, I left out something important: they civilly "married" a few years ago.

Also, on the topic of homosexuality, how are we defining "sodomy" here?  If youre referring to anally copulating: you're right, I have no idea.  But, is that really the deciding factor? (i.e. Whether they announced or were caught anally copulating?)

As things are most usually defined, it is the deciding factor when someone's referred to as a "sodomite." That isn't the only wrong thing about the situation, though, but using language that's accurate and not needlessly inflammatory is crucial, I think. Their twisting the concept of marriage is the thing you know about, the thing that's public, and that's bad enough. What they do or don't do in their bedroom is another story, and IMO, we should assume the best.

Fair enough.

I guess my question, then, is: is it OK to attend a Catholic service for this man, when it's a known fact that they had a gay civil marriage?  It seems like there's a serious sin in here somewhere.  Surely any intercessory prayers thanking his "partner" are a grave sin against God?

Canon Law does not permit this man any kind of "funeral" or "memorial service" from the Church, because he was objectively and publicly living in sin.

That there is some Catholic "service" is a  gross violation of Church Law. (Canon 1184)

From that perspective alone, you should not attend. We don't even need to touch on the "partner" question or the "sodomy" question.

You can certainly still pray for him, hoping that in his last moments he had the grace of conversion.
Out of curiosity, is it a requirement for a Catholic in good standing to have a Catholic burial if they are able?  Or is all that is required is that they receive the sacraments properly prior to death?
(10-19-2017, 02:52 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2017, 08:42 AM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2017, 07:29 AM)YouVoxClamantis Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-19-2017, 06:40 AM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-18-2017, 10:22 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I'm wondering how you know he engaged in sodomy.

Well, I left out something important: they civilly "married" a few years ago.

Also, on the topic of homosexuality, how are we defining "sodomy" here?  If youre referring to anally copulating: you're right, I have no idea.  But, is that really the deciding factor? (i.e. Whether they announced or were caught anally copulating?)

As things are most usually defined, it is the deciding factor when someone's referred to as a "sodomite." That isn't the only wrong thing about the situation, though, but using language that's accurate and not needlessly inflammatory is crucial, I think. Their twisting the concept of marriage is the thing you know about, the thing that's public, and that's bad enough. What they do or don't do in their bedroom is another story, and IMO, we should assume the best.

Fair enough.

I guess my question, then, is: is it OK to attend a Catholic service for this man, when it's a known fact that they had a gay civil marriage?  It seems like there's a serious sin in here somewhere.  Surely any intercessory prayers thanking his "partner" are a grave sin against God?

Canon Law does not permit this man any kind of "funeral" or "memorial service" from the Church, because he was objectively and publicly living in sin.

That there is some Catholic "service" is a  gross violation of Church Law. (Canon 1184)

From that perspective alone, you should not attend. We don't even need to touch on the "partner" question or the "sodomy" question.

You can certainly still pray for him, hoping that in his last moments he had the grace of conversion.

Would it be a sin to attend? Wouldn't the business of allowing this service be the duty of the diocese?

These kinds of crises of conscience are terrible.  I DON'T WANT TO OFFEND GOD.  That includes scandalizing others.  And, in not wanting to offend God, I want to do what's just and merciful.  If we don't attend, it will be like stabbing my father in law in the heart.
I'm just going to put this out there.  I speak with no authority whatsoever on this topic but there are some things to consider.

1.  It is not our call to make in terms of whether or not to allow a Catholic funeral.  That's up to the church authorities. 

2.  It seems to me that even the diocese doesn't really have a good answer on what to do that is consistent with church law.  If that's the case, then your personal actions can hardly cause more scandal than the actions of the priest.  In fact, most people are so muddled on this topic that I can't see scandal being part of the equation.  If that's the case, then perhaps we should consider how one's response might be considered an act of charity toward the bereaved.  

If you are still uncomfortable, then you might think about:

3.  Will your presence or lack thereof cause a stink in the family at a time when emotions are already running high?  If so, perhaps finding a middle ground would be appropriate.  Could you attend a wake and not the funeral rites themselves?  Perhaps you might conjure a "terrible cold" or feel otherwise unwell in some way that would allow you to attend a wake very briefly and go home after that?  

I'm sorry if anything I've said here might offend.  I'm just spit balling here.
I would suggest that you go and pray for the repose of his soul. One day you may be in Purgatory, thinking to yourself "Oh if only someone would say a prayer for me."
(10-19-2017, 02:52 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]Canon Law does not permit this man any kind of "funeral" or "memorial service" from the Church, because he was objectively and publicly living in sin.

Serious question, but how is a deceased sinner who was baptized Catholic supposed to be buried? Is there any form of memorial/service allowed?

Not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to learn something.
I'll let you sort out the advice you were given with regard to the funeral.

Something you may want to do for this man is pray the Rosary and/or Divine Mercy Chaplet. I watched a video recently where a priest who lost a family member to suicide was told years later to pray the Chaplet for her. He was confused as to why ("But Father, she died *insert the amount of years ago here*"). He was told that with God, everything is now, and that he should go home and pray for her.

Something consoling to think about.
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