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(10-23-2017, 03:41 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Sir, please look at the situation from the eyes of a Protestant before condemning.  That is all I ask of you.  Recall that harlots and sinners, according to Our Lord, were going to heaven before the scribes and pharisees.  If indeed a Roman Catholic thinks Protestants to be harlots, then I challenge him to examine himself or herself to first determine whether or not he or she is at heart a pharisee.

The Pharisee argument seems to come up a whole lot nowadays.

"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and have left the weightier things of the law; judgment, and mercy, and faith. These things you ought to have done, and not to leave those undone." - Matthew 23:23

Let's examine this for a moment.

Jesus Himself acknowledges the good practice of their traditions, ie, their tithing. The problem was that they hypocritically did not work on their souls. "Faith without works is dead," St. James says.

It isn't merciful to let a protestant think he or she is safe in their false sect. It's important to love the protestant while not giving approval to whatever brand of protestantism they follow. Praying, making sacrifices, giving them sacramentals, etc, is showing that protestant true love; turning a blind eye while they remain themselves blind (and unaware of their blindness) is not.
(10-23-2017, 03:40 PM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 03:33 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, Jovan, that is really going to do a lot of good in bringing the Protestants back into the fold.  Keep beating them over the head.

Stating facts isn't beating someone over the head.

Also, with regard to your statement: "Well, the Orthodox and the Oriental Churches are also Catholic but they did not spawn the Reformation."

They are not Catholic. The Orthodox claim to be catholic with a small c, but they are not Catholic. If they were, they wouldn't be in schism.

That is the point, now isn't it.  It is quite confusing to say Catholics and catholics are not in union (not to mention the fact that Anglicans also consider themselves to be catholics.)  So for those on the outside, "Roman Catholic" is used for anyone who proclaims the Pope has his or her head.

And yes, telling a beggar that he needs to get a job might be the truth but it will not be the loving response Our Lord would have in the same situation.  In a pedestrian sort of way it is beating them over the head with your words.
(10-23-2017, 03:48 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 03:15 PM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 02:52 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Indeed, Holy Mother Church is the mother of many, many churches. 

The True Church is only the mother of heretical offshoots in the same way that a severed limb belongs to a human body. It may share some characteristics, but there's no real and thriving connection between the two.

I am somewhat shocked that you would make an analogy between a mother and her child as having the same relationship between a body and its severed limb.  Do you not realize that these Protestants are in fact baptized into Our Lord.  Have you no respect for the connection that lies in our common baptism?  Perhaps Holy Mother Church should disown them but I do not believe that she has.  In fact it appears to me that Pope Francis has somewhat of a fondness for Lutherans.
The Church can't be the mother of protestantism. If she were the mother, the children would all live under her roof and share her DNA.

Some of the protestants have a valid Baptism, yes. That Sacrament came from Christ through the Church. Other protestants baptize in a non-Trinitarian way, and others still don't get baptized at all, because their tradition teaches them that it is unnecessary. No one is saying that "Holy Mother Church should disown them" either. Wanting to bring them into the Church is the exact opposite of disowning them. It's reaching out and offering them a roof over their head as a protection from the storm.
(10-23-2017, 03:48 PM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 03:41 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Sir, please look at the situation from the eyes of a Protestant before condemning.  That is all I ask of you.  Recall that harlots and sinners, according to Our Lord, were going to heaven before the scribes and pharisees.  If indeed a Roman Catholic thinks Protestants to be harlots, then I challenge him to examine himself or herself to first determine whether or not he or she is at heart a pharisee.

The Pharisee argument seems to come up a whole lot nowadays.

"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and have left the weightier things of the law; judgment, and mercy, and faith. These things you ought to have done, and not to leave those undone." - Matthew 23:23

Let's examine this for a moment.

Jesus Himself acknowledges the good practice of their traditions, ie, their tithing. The problem was that they hypocritically did not work on their souls. "Faith without works is dead," St. James says.

It isn't merciful to let a protestant think he or she is safe in their false sect. It's important to love the protestant while not giving approval to whatever brand of protestantism they follow. Praying, making sacrifices, giving them sacramentals, etc, is showing that protestant true love; turning a blind eye while they remain themselves blind (and unaware of their blindness) is not.

All very good points.  Much more kindly put than in your prior post.
(10-23-2017, 03:53 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]And yes, telling a beggar that he needs to get a job might be the truth but it will not be the loving response Our Lord would have in the same situation.  In a pedestrian sort of way it is beating them over the head with your words.

Keep in mind that Jesus' loving response wasn't always a soothing, easy-to-hear response. He called people whitewashed tombs and hypocrites. He said He was the only way to the Father; that isn't "beating [someone] over the head" if you echo that sentiment to a modern day Jew or a Hindu.
(10-23-2017, 03:41 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Sir, please look at the situation from the eyes of a Protestant before condemning.  That is all I ask of you.  Recall that harlots and sinners, according to Our Lord, were going to heaven before the scribes and pharisees.  If indeed a Roman Catholic thinks Protestants to be harlots, then I challenge him to examine himself or herself to first determine whether or not he or she is at heart a pharisee.

I don't think I am following you.

Why would a Catholic be a pharisee if he recognizes that Protestants were not/ are not faithful to Christ and his Bride?

As far as going to Heaven..

St. Peter Julian Eymard, 1868 : "People often say:'it is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.'  That is not true! That would mean one could be saved without the true faith.  No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, though a prodigal, and, however great a sinner he may be, nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas, the heretic is not. And how hard is it to make him become one!" (The Real Presence p.245)
(10-23-2017, 03:58 PM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 03:53 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]And yes, telling a beggar that he needs to get a job might be the truth but it will not be the loving response Our Lord would have in the same situation.  In a pedestrian sort of way it is beating them over the head with your words.

Keep in mind that Jesus' loving response wasn't always the soothing, easy-to-hear response. He called people whitewashed tombs and hypocrites. He said He was the only way to the Father; that isn't "beating [someone] over the head" if you echo that sentiment to a modern day Jew or a Hindu.

Jesus was speaking to the leaders at those moments.  He was very harsh with them.  But with the people, he was much more gentle.  For the most part, Protestants have no true leaders but are all lost to most of the sacraments and to theological understandings of very basic Christian doctrines.  To reach them, you will not do so by attacking them but by witnessing to them.  Part of that witnessing needs to start with a clean-up in the upper echelons of the Roman Church, IMHO.  I honestly believe that the RCC has a plank in its eye that it needs to remove before it starts looking at the splinters, planks and logs in the Protestant Churches.  All of the scandals (sexual and financial) that continue and continue simply confirm in their minds the correlation between the RCC and Rev. 17.

Yes, for the most part, they do have the catholic DNA in their veins.  They believe in One Lord Jesus Christ, crucified for the salvation of the world.  They are living breathing offshoots of the Holy Mother Church.  Unfortunately when you get to the grandchildren and great-grandchildren, it is hard to recognize the resemblance.
(10-23-2017, 04:03 PM)BC Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 03:41 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Sir, please look at the situation from the eyes of a Protestant before condemning.  That is all I ask of you.  Recall that harlots and sinners, according to Our Lord, were going to heaven before the scribes and pharisees.  If indeed a Roman Catholic thinks Protestants to be harlots, then I challenge him to examine himself or herself to first determine whether or not he or she is at heart a pharisee.

I don't think I am following you.

Why would a Catholic be a pharisee if he recognizes that Protestants were not/ are not faithful to Christ and his Bride?

As far as going to Heaven..

St. Peter Julian Eymard, 1868 : "People often say:'it is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.'  That is not true! That would mean one could be saved without the true faith.  No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, though a prodigal, and, however great a sinner he may be, nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas, the heretic is not. And how hard is it to make him become one!" (The Real Presence p.245)

More than simply a tit-for-tat accusing Protestants of being this or that bad name, we see that the fundamental difference is a critical one.

The motive for belief in the Catholic Church (the formal aspect of Faith) is a trust in the authority of God who has revealed certain truths through Holy Writ, the Apostles and ultimately because the Church (which Christ gave such a power to teach) teaches and certifies that a certain truth is Revealed.

This is formally a Divine Faith, because the authority we trust is God Himself.

The motive for belief for a Protestant is personal opinion. Having no earthly authority to teach him and assure him that a certain truth is clearly revealed, he takes Holy Writ has God's Word because he chooses it to be so. He determines its meaning through his own opinion of what it says. He trusts all of this on his own authority, not on the authority of God or on the authority of the earthly teaching authority which God established.

In short, a Catholic, even if he be a grave unrepentant sinner, still has the supernatural virtue of Faith, even if it does him little good (since he does not have Charity). 

A Protestant, however, no matter how sincere his belief is does not have the supernatural virtue of Faith, but a mere human trust. Perhaps a very strong one, but still it's human. As such, since no human work without grace is of any use toward his supernatural end, this "faith" is dead, barring some very special infusion of grace, which is meant to prepare him to convert and receive that supernatural virtue by entering the visible society which is the Church established by Christ.
(10-23-2017, 04:10 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Jesus was speaking to the leaders at those moments.  He was very harsh with them.  But with the people, he was much more gentle.  For the most part, Protestants have no true leaders but are all lost to most of the sacraments and to theological understandings of very basic Christian doctrines.  To reach them, you will not do so by attacking them but by witnessing to them.  Part of that witnessing needs to start with a clean-up in the upper echelons of the Roman Church, IMHO.  I honestly believe that the RCC has a plank in its eye that it needs to remove before it starts looking at the splinters, planks and logs in the Protestant Churches.  All of the scandals (sexual and financial) that continue and continue simply confirm in their minds the correlation between the RCC and Rev. 17.

Yes, for the most part, they do have the catholic DNA in their veins.  They believe in One Lord Jesus Christ, crucified for the salvation of the world.  They are living breathing offshoots of the Holy Mother Church. Unfortunately when you get to the grandchildren and great-grandchildren, it is hard to recognize the resemblance.

I bolded some problems with this post.

1) Who is attacking them? Sharing the truth isn't attacking anyone.

2) Protestants don't have "churches." They belong to sects.

3) Some of them have a valid Baptism. That doesn't transmit Catholic DNA. They don't profess the Faith of Catholics. They believe in Jesus, yes, but most don't believe in the Real Presence ("if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life within you"). Most don't confess their sins to a priest. Most don't believe in the Marian dogmas. Etc.

""There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.) "

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=335477&language=en

If a protestant goes to heaven, it is in spite of his or her religion, not because of it. Invincible ignorance plays a role.

"There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." - Bl. Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (On Promotion Of False Doctrines)

https://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p9quanto.htm

It isn't charitable to leave a protestant in the dark and hope they're truly invincibly ignorant, however.
(10-23-2017, 04:10 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, for the most part, they do have the catholic DNA in their veins.  They believe in One Lord Jesus Christ, crucified for the salvation of the world.  They are living breathing offshoots of the Holy Mother Church.  Unfortunately when you get to the grandchildren and great-grandchildren, it is hard to recognize the resemblance.

As above, they have some of the rudiments of accepting the Faith, yes. They have the potential to become Catholics.

Sadly, as I mentioned above, their "belief" is not at all the same as that of a Catholic. They've "convinced themselves" that these things are true. They have an opinion that Christ does to save them.

Catholics have Faith and trust in the authority of God through his Church teaching that these things are true.

Change the motive, change the formal aspect of something, and it's a completely different thing.

Edited to add :

The difference is me having learned about DNA from Francis Crick, where taking his authority to teach about such things, I trust he's right; versus, having heard about DNA and reading some popular writings about biology, I say "Yep, I think DNA exists and it works this way".

A totally different type of "faith" on a natural level.
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