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(10-23-2017, 04:03 PM)BC Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 03:41 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Sir, please look at the situation from the eyes of a Protestant before condemning.  That is all I ask of you.  Recall that harlots and sinners, according to Our Lord, were going to heaven before the scribes and pharisees.  If indeed a Roman Catholic thinks Protestants to be harlots, then I challenge him to examine himself or herself to first determine whether or not he or she is at heart a pharisee.

I don't think I am following you.

Why would a Catholic be a pharisee if he recognizes that Protestants were not/ are not faithful to Christ and his Bride?

As far as going to Heaven..

St. Peter Julian Eymard, 1868 : "People often say:'it is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.'  That is not true! That would mean one could be saved without the true faith.  No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, though a prodigal, and, however great a sinner he may be, nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas, the heretic is not. And how hard is it to make him become one!" (The Real Presence p.245)

What is impossible with men is always possible with God.  We cannot judge the hearts of men, that is not our place.  We are bound by the sacraments, God is not, He is the only true judge of the hearts of men.  

Let me ask this question of you.  If a man was abused as a child by a priest and although he eventually forgave the priest he could not bring himself to go back to the Catholic church, would you damn him if you were God?  If you were God would you damn every heretic?  If you were God would you damn every schismatic?  If you were God would you damn every Protestant?  Unless you said a resounding "no" to every one of those questions, I would say that you may not understand the indescribable depths of God's love for all of his children.  Yes there is the letter of the law, but God's mercy is greater than the law.

Turn it around, if your son were a heretic, or a schismatic, or a Protestant, would you cease to love him?  Would you cast him out of your house?  Would you refuse to feed him if he were hungry?  I would not and I do not believe that I am more magnanimous that God.
(10-23-2017, 04:10 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Jesus was speaking to the leaders at those moments.  He was very harsh with them.  But with the people, he was much more gentle.
Quote:Jesus said to her, 'Go home, fetch thy husband, and come back here.' 'I have no husband,' answered the woman; and Jesus told her, 'True enough, thou hast no husband. Thou hast had five husbands, but the man who is with thee now is no husband of thine; thou hast told the truth over this.' (Jn 4.16-18)

Quote:Jesus went into the temple, and began driving out those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the bankers, and the chairs of the pigeon-sellers; nor would he allow anyone to carry his wares through the temple. And this was the admonition he gave them, 'Is it not written, My house shall be known among all the nations for a house of prayer? Whereas you have made it into a den of thieves.' The chief priests and scribes heard of this ... (Mk 11.15-18)

These were not the "leaders" but the common folk, and it was afterward that the leaders heard about this.

Quote:He said all this while he was teaching in the synagogue, at Capharnaum. And there were many of his disciples who said, when they heard it, 'This is strange talk, who can be expected to listen to it?' But Jesus, inwardly aware that his disciples were complaining over it, said to them, 'Does this try your faith? What will you make of it, if you see the Son of Man ascending to the place where he was before? Only the spirit gives life; the flesh is of no avail; and the words I have been speaking to you are spirit, and life. But there are some, even among you, who do not believe.' Jesus knew from the first which were those who did not believe, and which of them was to betray him. And he went on to say, 'That is what I meant when I told you that nobody can come to me unless he has received the gift from my Father.' After this, many of his disciples went back to their old ways, and walked no more in his company. Whereupon Jesus said to the twelve, 'Would you, too, go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom should we go? Thy words are the words of eternal life'

Christ did not adapt the Truth just because it was hard. He presented it in a way they could understand, certain one's refused, he lectured them on their lack of Faith, and then allowed them to go away, despite the fact they would probably be damned as a result. And He told them clearly, only those who had received the gift of Faith from God, could approach Christ and his teachings. These were average folks, not even Apostles.

Not exactly the most gentle of treatments ...

Truth sometimes hurts. It doesn't make it less true.

You're right, it doesn't mean we beat people down with it, but we cannot pretend that it isn't the truth.
(10-23-2017, 04:17 PM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]I bolded some problems with this post.

1) Who is attacking them? Sharing the truth isn't attacking anyone.

2) Protestants don't have "churches." They belong to sects.

3) Some of them have a valid Catholic Baptism. That doesn't transmit Catholic DNA. They don't profess the Faith of Catholics. They believe in Jesus, yes, but most don't believe in the Real Presence ("if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life within you"). Most don't confess their sins to a priest. Most don't believe in the Marian dogmas. Etc.

""There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.) "

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=335477&language=en

If a protestant goes to heaven, it is in spite of his or her religion, not because of it. Invincible ignorance plays a role.

"There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." - Bl. Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (On Promotion Of False Doctrines)

https://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p9quanto.htm

It isn't charitable to leave a protestant in the dark and hope they're truly invincibly ignorant, however.

Which "church" is the universal Church of the faithful?  You will say that the RCC is the ONE UNIVERSAL CHURCH because its Head is Peter.  The Orthodox would say that the Church is present wherever its members are gather around their bishop.  The same way that the bread validly consecrated in France is the same Eucharist as the bread consecrated in San Francisco.  It is ONE BODY on a spiritual not temporal level.  

Then we must look as where some of these teachings come from.  Pope Boniface's teaching was done as a political retort to the King of France over the king's obstinance in obeying the Pope's orders.  Yet this political poke in the eye is held as an infallible teaching by definition.  No one believed this prior to 1302.  So did God change his mind after 1300 years?  These temporal and political reactions by popes vying for power and control and the changes and additions to doctrines without the input or acceptance of the Orthodox or Oriental Churches had created not only a schism but an unbridgeable gulf.  So yes, I am hoping and praying that Our Father has great mercy on those who are truly invincibly ignorant because I can understand how hard it is to believe in a doctrine that was originally formulated as a counter to a political rival. 

Indeed, without understanding them, you are perceived as being attacking.
(10-23-2017, 04:38 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 04:10 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Jesus was speaking to the leaders at those moments.  He was very harsh with them.  But with the people, he was much more gentle.
Quote:Jesus said to her, 'Go home, fetch thy husband, and come back here.' 'I have no husband,' answered the woman; and Jesus told her, 'True enough, thou hast no husband. Thou hast had five husbands, but the man who is with thee now is no husband of thine; thou hast told the truth over this.' (Jn 4.16-18)

Interesting, I have never and still do not see Christ's interaction with the woman as harsh.  She was very moved by what He said and went to share it with the townspeople.  

Quote:Jesus went into the temple, and began driving out those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the bankers, and the chairs of the pigeon-sellers; nor would he allow anyone to carry his wares through the temple. And this was the admonition he gave them, 'Is it not written, My house shall be known among all the nations for a house of prayer? Whereas you have made it into a den of thieves.' The chief priests and scribes heard of this ... (Mk 11.15-18)

These were not the "leaders" but the common folk, and it was afterward that the leaders heard about this.

Oh, I beg to differ.  The moneychangers were the "banker" folks, were quite rich, and were very influential.  They weren't the common folk.

Quote:He said all this while he was teaching in the synagogue, at Capharnaum. And there were many of his disciples who said, when they heard it, 'This is strange talk, who can be expected to listen to it?' But Jesus, inwardly aware that his disciples were complaining over it, said to them, 'Does this try your faith? What will you make of it, if you see the Son of Man ascending to the place where he was before? Only the spirit gives life; the flesh is of no avail; and the words I have been speaking to you are spirit, and life. But there are some, even among you, who do not believe.' Jesus knew from the first which were those who did not believe, and which of them was to betray him. And he went on to say, 'That is what I meant when I told you that nobody can come to me unless he has received the gift from my Father.' After this, many of his disciples went back to their old ways, and walked no more in his company. Whereupon Jesus said to the twelve, 'Would you, too, go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom should we go? Thy words are the words of eternal life'

Christ did not adapt the Truth just because it was hard. He presented it in a way they could understand, certain one's refused, he lectured them on their lack of Faith, and then allowed them to go away, despite the fact they would probably be damned as a result. And He told them clearly, only those who had received the gift of Faith from God, could approach Christ and his teachings. These were average folks, not even Apostles.

Not exactly the most gentle of treatments ...

Truth sometimes hurts. It doesn't make it less true.

You're right, it doesn't mean we beat people down with it, but we cannot pretend that it isn't the truth.

Yes truth can be uncomfortable.  But the RCC has not been so successful in delivering the "truth" over the past 500 years, maybe it is time to try something different.
(10-23-2017, 04:22 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]What is impossible with men is always possible with God.  We cannot judge the hearts of men, that is not our place.  We are bound by the sacraments, God is not, He is the only true judge of the hearts of men.  

Let me ask this question of you.  If a man was abused as a child by a priest and although he eventually forgave the priest he could not bring himself to go back to the Catholic church, would you damn him if you were God?  If you were God would you damn every heretic?  If you were God would you damn every schismatic?  If you were God would you damn every Protestant?  Unless you said a resounding "no" to every one of those questions, I would say that you may not understand the indescribable depths of God's love for all of his children.  Yes there is the letter of the law, but God's mercy is greater than the law.

Turn it around, if your son were a heretic, or a schismatic, or a Protestant, would you cease to love him?  Would you cast him out of your house?  Would you refuse to feed him if he were hungry?  I would not and I do not believe that I am more magnanimous that God.

God is perfectly just and merciful.

Like a loving Father, he not only offers us grace, sufficient to save our souls, but also gives us free will by which we can choose to love Him.

A consequence of that, however, is that we can choose not to love Him.

He offers us heaven, but does not force us to accept it. And loves us enough to respect our choice to go to Hell if we want.

God offers every heretic, schismatic and sinner, every Protestant, Jew, Muslim and even Catholic all the grace necessary to accept the true Faith and save their soul. If they do not accept that grace, they are at fault, and God will not violate their free will and save them if they do not want the grace He offers.
(10-23-2017, 04:46 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Yes truth can be uncomfortable.  But the RCC has not been so successful in delivering the "truth" over the past 500 years, maybe it is time to try something different.

In the US during the 1950s there were hundreds of thousands of converts from Protestantism per year. (Statistics for 1965, even, show about 125,000 vs. about 30,000 in 2016)

Pretty successful in my book.

The "new approach" of Ecumenism stemming from Vatican II torpedoed that effort.

I say we go with what was working : The unchanging Faith.
"In His Love" and "MagisterMusicae" thank you for your debate with me.  I was raised Southern Baptist.  I must unfortunately do some work now.  But really, the way in which the truth is delivered can mean the difference between bringing someone to the true faith and driving them further away.  I do not see much charity in some of the posts in this thread and simply wanted to make that point.
(10-23-2017, 04:50 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]"In His Love" and "MagisterMusicae" thank you for your debate with me.  I was raised Southern Baptist.  I must unfortunately do some work now.  But really, the way in which the truth is delivered can mean the difference between bringing someone to the true faith and driving them further away.  I do not see much charity in some of the posts in this thread and simply wanted to make that point.

I am not sure I've detected any lack of Charity here from Catholics.

If you wanted to make the point that many Catholics do not present the Faith well and so as a result put off Protestants who are otherwise open, while I'd disagree with your premise, you failed miserably in communicating that.

Your first post was about how hardcore Calvinists are a "fruit" of the Catholic Church and implied (via biblical quotation) that in fact it's the Church that is fully and totally rotten. If that's not what you meant, then, again, you've done a terrible job communicating this last point you are making.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, and assume you just wrote badly, but you ought to be careful in the future. If your words are taken at face value, they are quasi-blasphemous against the Mystical Spouse of Christ, and at least question Her Indefectibility.

To your last point, Charity isn't about being nice. Charity is loving God first, then loving neighbor because of the love for God who loves neighbor.

The highest degree of an act of Charity toward neighbor is by helping them to save their soul by presenting the True Faith to them. We do so according to their ability, yes, and never in a bitter way, but we cannot hide the plain truth. If we do so, we are not being charitible at all.
(10-23-2017, 04:22 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]What is impossible with men is always possible with God.  We cannot judge the hearts of men, that is not our place.  We are bound by the sacraments, God is not, He is the only true judge of the hearts of men.  

Let me ask this question of you.  If a man was abused as a child by a priest and although he eventually forgave the priest he could not bring himself to go back to the Catholic church, would you damn him if you were God?  If you were God would you damn every heretic?  If you were God would you damn every schismatic?  If you were God would you damn every Protestant?  Unless you said a resounding "no" to every one of those questions, I would say that you may not understand the indescribable depths of God's love for all of his children.  Yes there is the letter of the law, but God's mercy is greater than the law.

Turn it around, if your son were a heretic, or a schismatic, or a Protestant, would you cease to love him?  Would you cast him out of your house?  Would you refuse to feed him if he were hungry?  I would not and I do not believe that I am more magnanimous that God.

God is infinitely more just than me and infinitely more merciful than me.

My opinion on arbitrating judgement means nothing. I only share what the Saints and Church have spoken of on this subject as Protestants desperately need unvarnished Truth. Those of good will , rather than being put off, will respond with grace.

Let me tell you this.  I weep for heretics and their fate leaves me up at night in anguish as it affects those dearest to me.

I am no cradle Catholic. I was raised a fervent Protestant . God in his gratuitous mercy showed me the Truth because I allowed Him to open my heart.

Here is a saintly example of gentle harshness, if you will, as Christ Himself displayed.


 "The Cure' of Ars once gave a medal to a Protestant who visited him, who exclaimed: "Dear sir, you have given a medal to one who is a heretic.  At least I am a heretic from your point of view.  But although we are not of the same religion, I hope we shall both one day be in heaven."  The holy priest took the gentleman's hand in his own, and giving him a look which seemed to reach into his very soul, answered him, "Alas!  My friend, we cannot be together in heaven, unless we have begun to live so in this world.  Death makes no change in that. As the tree falls so shall it lie.  Jesus Christ has said, "He that does not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican."  And He said again, "There shall be one fold and one shepherd." and He made Saint Peter the chief shepherd of His flock."  Then in a voice full of sweetness, he added, "My dear friend, there are not two ways of serving Jesus Christ; there is only one way, and that is to serve Him as He Himself wishes to be served."  Saying this the priest left him.  But these words sank deeply into the good man's heart, and led him to renounce the errors in which he had been brought up, and he became a fervent Catholic." (Life of the Cure of Ars, St. John Vianney)
(10-23-2017, 03:48 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 03:15 PM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2017, 02:52 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Indeed, Holy Mother Church is the mother of many, many churches.  

The True Church is only the mother of heretical offshoots in the same way that a severed limb belongs to a human body. It may share some characteristics, but there's no real and thriving connection between the two.

I am somewhat shocked that you would make an analogy between a mother and her child as having the same relationship between a body and its severed limb.  Do you not realize that these Protestants are in fact baptized into Our Lord.  Have you no respect for the connection that lies in our common baptism?  Perhaps Holy Mother Church should disown them but I do not believe that she has.  In fact it appears to me that Pope Francis has somewhat of a fondness for Lutherans.

I happened to notice this little bit. Apparently Prostrateinawe forgot that the Bible very clearly draws the connection between these things. Through baptism we are made members of the body of Christ and children of the bride of Christ, both refer to the Catholic Church. There is only one Body of Christ and many of its members have fallen away and Jesus had this to say to such people 
Quote:I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth.
John 15:5-6
Was Jesus being "uncharitable" then?
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