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Mark 4:[37] And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that the ship was filled. [38] And he was in the hinder part of the ship, sleeping upon a pillow; and they awake him, and say to him: Master, doth it not concern thee that we perish? [39] And rising up, he rebuked the wind, and said to the sea: Peace, be still. And the wind ceased: and there was made a great calm.
(10-26-2017, 12:24 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]How about during the Arian controversy, when it was not the teachings of the Church, but the very bedrock, the way we view Christ, that was under attack? St Athanasius stood alone against the world. Exiled by four different Emperors for his orthodox beliefs, shunned by virtually all the other Bishops, excommunicated by Pope Liberius, it was literally "Athanasius contra mundum".

Today, we are blessed that it is not just one Bishop that stands for Catholic Truth. We have many, plus, just as St Athanasius did, we have Christ's promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail. Yes, these are trying time, but hold fast to the Faith, pray, and leave it up to God, knowing that whether we live to see it or not, the Faith will triumph!

Good point.  It reminds me of these passages from the letters of St. Basil.  I think a lot of this sounds familiar.


The doctrines of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the devices of innovators are in vogue in the Churches; now men are rather contrivers of cunning systems than theologians; the wisdom of this world wins the highest prizes and has rejected the glory of the cross. Shepherds are banished, and in their places are introduced grievous wolves hurrying the flock of Christ. Houses of prayer have none to assemble in them; desert places are full of lamenting crowds. The elders lament when they compare the present with the past. The younger are yet more to be compassionated, for they do not know of what they have been deprived. All this is enough to stir the pity of men who have learned the love of Christ; but, compared with the actual state of things, words fall very far short. 
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3202090.htm



Its bad seeds were first sown by the infamous Arius; they then took deep root through the labours of many who vigorously cultivated the impiety between his time and ours. Now they have produced their deadly fruit. The doctrines of true religion are overthrown. The laws of the Church are in confusion. The ambition of men, who have no fear of God, rushes into high posts, and exalted office is now publicly known as the prize of impiety. The result is, that the worse a man blasphemes, the fitter the people think him to be a bishop. Clerical dignity is a thing of the past. There is a complete lack of men shepherding the Lord's flock with knowledge. Ambitious men are constantly throwing away the provision for the poor on their own enjoyment and the distribution of gifts. There is no precise knowledge of canons. There is complete immunity in sinning; for when men have been placed in office by the favour of men, they are obliged to return the favour by continually showing indulgence to offenders. Just judgment is a thing of the past; and everyone walks according to his heart's desire. Vice knows no bounds; the people know no restraint. Men in authority are afraid to speak, for those who have reached power by human interest are the slaves of those to whom they owe their advancement. And now the very vindication of orthodoxy is looked upon in some quarters as an opportunity for mutual attack; and men conceal their private ill-will and pretend that their hostility is all for the sake of the truth. Others, afraid of being convicted of disgraceful crimes, madden the people into fratricidal quarrels, that their own doings may be unnoticed in the general distress. Hence the war admits of no truce, for the doers of ill deeds are afraid of a peace, as being likely to lift the veil from their secret infamy. All the while unbelievers laugh; men of weak faith are shaken; faith is uncertain; souls are drenched in ignorance, because adulterators of the word imitate the truth. The mouths of true believers are dumb, while every blasphemous tongue wags free; holy things are trodden under foot; the better laity shun the churches as schools of impiety; and lift their hands in the deserts with sighs and tears to their Lord in heaven.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3202092.htm
(10-26-2017, 05:29 AM)BenjaminJ Wrote: [ -> ]It is inevitable now, there is no going back anymore.  Following Francis and his heresy, or staying true to the teachings of Christ.c what areally we true Catholics supposed to do?

While I do think the Pope probably holds heretical opinions, he has not expressed anything which is explicitly heretical and can be judged as such to constitute formal heresy and an ecclesiastical crime.

We ought to be very careful with that word.

It has consequences.

The "worst" the Pope Francis has been accused of by mainstream, reputable scholars is promoting heresy. That is not heresy. Rather, it is providing the conditions so that people accept heretical views. That could be intentional (and thus sinful) or unintentional.

Either way it's a serious matter, indeed, but not so uncommon. It happens every time we suggest to a Protestant that he's a good Christian. It was also Archbishop's Lefebvre evaluation (and implicitly that of Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci) of the New Mass. By not fully expressing the Catholic doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Priesthood, and the Real Presence, but allowing one to both take a Catholic view and also an heretical Protestant view (unlike the traditional Mass), it favors heresies.

Serious, again, as that is, it is not the same as calling these things heretical.

One who is a formal heretic has committed a grave sin, and by his formal adherence is ipso facto excommunicated. That has serious consequences, so it's irresponsible to throw the term around unless we truly mean this.

It is precisely the line of thought that leads to Sedevacantism and the pride inherent in setting one's self up as ecclesiastical judge of the Pope.
(10-26-2017, 02:18 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]While I do think the Pope probably holds heretical opinions, he has not expressed anything which is explicitly heretical and can be judged as such to constitute formal heresy and an ecclesiastical crime.
What about his recent statements on how the death penalty is contrary to the Gospel?
I do agree that we can't judge him to be a formal heretic, since only a superior can do that.
(10-26-2017, 04:39 PM)Paul Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-26-2017, 02:18 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]While I do think the Pope probably holds heretical opinions, he has not expressed anything which is explicitly heretical and can be judged as such to constitute formal heresy and an ecclesiastical crime.
What about his recent statements on how the death penalty is contrary to the Gospel?

He's, quite simply, wrong.

No theologian held this opinion until recent times, and modern theologians base it on a false understanding of "Human Dignity".

This flows from Vatican II's Gaudium et spes (no. 22), and John Paul II's Evangelium vitæ .

Here is expressed a new false concept of "Human Dignity". 

The Breviary for Christmas puts on the cleric's lips the traditional understanding of "Human Dignity" through the teaching of Pope St. Leo I (the Great) -- my emphasis :

Quote:Christian, remember your dignity, and now that you share in God's own nature, do not return by sin to your former base condition. Bear in mind who is your head and of whose body you are a member. Do not forget that you have been rescued from the power of darkness and brought into the light of God's kingdom.

Here Pope St. Leo the Great identifies what gives that great dignity to the Christian : He has, by Baptism, been incorporated in God's own nature by being incorporated into Christ. He has been rescued from the indignity of his fallen human condition by the Sacraments and been given the dignity of a redeemed man, through Christ.

Gaudium et spes, Dignitatis humanæ, Redemptor hominis and Evangelium vitæ teach precisely the opposite.

Gaudium et spes, for instance says that human dignity comes about because :

Quote:For by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man. He worked with human hands, He thought with a human mind, acted by human choice and loved with a human heart. Born of the Virgin Mary, He has truly been made one of us, like us in all things except sin.

Very subtly, but clear if we compare with St. Leo the Great, this new doctrine teaches that Christ did not give Christians a particular dignity by raising them through the Redemption, but rather it was by becoming man and acting like a man that Christ showed how great man was. Absolute zero references are made to the fact that man without the Redemption is a fallen undignified creature or that a Christian who casts off that share in the life of God, given by Sanctifying Grace by sin, debases himself and loses that great dignity that God has freely given him.

If man is great because he is man, then of course, man deserves to live unless he has forfeited his humanity.

It is a subtle, but perverse change.

Hence whatever is founded upon this false idea, is wrong.

It is also myopic, because it sees only the protection of society in the future as the purpose of punishment for a criminal. It ignore the fact that not only must a criminal be punished to protect society, but also the penalty serves to help prevent crimes (because it serves as a deterrent), and it satisfies for the injury to justice done by the crime.

Yet it is not heresy. It is an error to say that the Gospel teaching "no death penalty", because it does not, but it does not contradict revealed truth.
(10-26-2017, 06:38 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]Yet it is not heresy. It is an error to say that the Gospel teaching "no death penalty", because it does not, but it does not contradict revealed truth.

Is it not a revealed truth that the state is permitted to execute criminals, at least in some cases? How is that any different that if someone were to say that abortion is allowed sometimes? It's one thing to say that states should exercise mercy and refrain from executing criminals, and if that's all he means, then it wouldn't be heretical. But it seems to go beyond that, saying it's immoral even in principle. Or is that reading too much into his statement?
I also feel like I'm alone. When I bring something up I see the eyes roll. I have yet to find anyone in my parish that is of the same mindset. I am stuck with the NO Mass. TLM is hours away.  I attend a Byzantine parish at least once a month, it's about an hour away. I get frustrated but I soldier on. Lots of Rosaries, Eucharistic Adoration and reading is the only way I keep from losing my mind.
(10-27-2017, 06:57 PM)BobR67 Wrote: [ -> ]I also feel like I'm alone. When I bring something up I see the eyes roll. I have yet to find anyone in my parish that is of the same mindset. I am stuck with the NO Mass. TLM is hours away.  I attend a Byzantine parish at least once a month, it's about an hour away. I get frustrated but I soldier on. Lots of Rosaries, Eucharistic Adoration and reading is the only way I keep from losing my mind.

I feel your pain.

I have been doing the same thing for over a decade (though I go to a Byzantine liturgy every Sunday ).  Sometimes I feel like I can manage, even hopeful.

Most of the time however I feel helpless as to the future. The loneliness is the worst, especially when you were used to having friends and support before you decided to put  Christ and the Catholic Faith before all else.

The questions of finding a  proper spouse and the prospect of raising a family when you can barely take care of yourself weighs heavily.
(10-27-2017, 06:57 PM)BobR67 Wrote: [ -> ]I also feel like I'm alone. When I bring something up I see the eyes roll. I have yet to find anyone in my parish that is of the same mindset. I am stuck with the NO Mass. TLM is hours away.  I attend a Byzantine parish at least once a month, it's about an hour away. I get frustrated but I soldier on. Lots of Rosaries, Eucharistic Adoration and reading is the only way I keep from losing my mind.

http://www.livemass.net/

Cling to that and the Rosary while benefiting from your local Sacraments. Offer your frustration to Jesus, especially while in adoration.
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