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(11-10-2017, 02:14 AM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]Well, that just shows how uneducated I am on the subject, then. I just don't like seeing Melkite undergoing so much disturbance over something that will seem minor in the face of Eternity.

Man, just the thumbnails themselves look gruesome. Also, why does that rabbi have his mouth on that baby's genitals? How is this allowed? People who do this to girls (both the mutilation and the mouth-to-genital contact) face criminal charges.

This is something that is so disturbing. How do these people get away with such grotesque abuse..?

Well, actually we do know why, but still.
Today's circumcision is horrific.

I cannot bear to see any young boy go through such excruciating pain just soon after his birth.  

If there was a female genital equivalent to male circumcision being practiced routinely ( I know there is in Africa but not among the formerly civilized Christian West) we would see non stop marching protests by Feminists on Washington and media coverage until it was banned.

But there is silence.
Unfortunately and horrifically, female circumcision is very common among Muslims, even in America. But you won't see feminists protesting that because, well, that's their CULTURE. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE THEM.

[Image: securedownload-590x590.jpg]

I am now thoroughly convinced that I will never circumcise my sons! My fiance tells me that his manhood is permanently scarred from the procedure. He was born premature so I am not sure how soon after birth they did the procedure, but apparently it caused some significant scar tissue.

Wow did this post take a tangent LOL. But a good one! Thanks All!
(11-10-2017, 01:08 AM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ]Melkite, I don't mean to make your struggles seem insignificant, but I would like to help you put them into perspective a bit. With the anger, lack of trust, your feelings that you can't love/respect/worship a God who would allow circumcision, etc, is it really worth potentially losing your soul over a tiny piece of foreskin?

I don't see it as a question of whether it's worth it or not anymore.  It's something that I cannot imagine any way God could possibly console.  There is a permanent loss, and as long as that loss is there, it would cause me suffering.  Every time I would look God in the eyes, I would know that he is, ultimately, responsible for my suffering on this, and wasn't interested in preventing it.  I know God never promised me an existence free from suffering, and I know God doesn't owe it to me, but it doesn't make that knowledge hurt any less.  I cannot trust God to protect me from suffering.  Heaven would never really be heaven as long as I am feeling that.
(11-10-2017, 02:33 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2017, 12:40 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]I personally reject that God ever actually required it. 

God requires that each and every one of us die.

A fortiori, death is clearly a far worse punishment, and somehow I don't think you would have a terrible time seeing that death is a just punishment for sin, and that demanding it of us in no way makes God unmerciful, or unjust.

In my own case, I have no personal grudges, and certainly in no way feel that I am less a man or that I was robbed of something.

I would happily undergo whatever God demanded of me, be it joyful or painful, because He is God, and that means He knows what is best for me, far better than I do, or any one else, and what will best lead to the salvation of my soul and an increase in His extrinsic glory. He demands nothing impossible or unreasonable of me, give me the grace to suffer what I must, and merit heaven. That's far greater than any material thing.


I no longer accept that death is a just punishment for any sin whatsoever.  As a logical consequence of sin separating oneself from the sustainer of existence, that makes sense.  But that should then result in the cessation of existence for that person, not in their perpetual existence and torment.

If circumcision is a type of death in the context of the Abrahamic covenant, then it does not make sense that God did not require it of all Jews, since he demands death of all people.  Infants are certainly guilty of nothing, so circumcision cannot be a punishment for something.  

I'm truly happy for you that you do not feel that you were robbed of something and that you hold no grudges.  Perhaps you would feel the same way if you do not fully understand the ramifications of circumcision and came to know them.  Since many Americans don't know them, though, I wonder if you do, and if that is perhaps why you feel that this is not caused you any serious harm?

I would not happily undergo something painful, even if God demanded it of me.  I could perhaps be convinced to submit to it, but if it was something that caused me pain and I knew I did not and would not want it, I can't imagine ever doing so happily.  I simply don't trust God nor care about his will enough to be giddy about experiencing pain that he asks me to feel.
(11-10-2017, 02:16 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]I simply don't trust God nor care about his will enough ...

That's the problem. The rest of your concerns are merely a symptom of this.

I don't mean to sound blunt or uncaring (I am not, and am happy to discuss your issues and help you), bit this is your fundamental issue, not circumcision, or any other "injustice" to see in the Old Testament.

You want the universe to conform to your own personal standards.

Because it does not you dismiss it. If your standards are the rule, though, then there is no objective standard. If no objective standards, then you have no reason or right to assert any single moral standard is obligatory.

And yet this whole discussion is precisely about the morality of a certain actions ...

(11-10-2017, 02:16 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps you would feel the same way if you do not fully understand the ramifications of circumcision and came to know them.

I am quite offended that you dismiss my experiences as trivial. Clearly it's just because I'm ignorant of things ... you are the expert. Your perspective is the only one, and my experience does not matter.

May I submit, that it is equally as plausible that my attitude matches with most other men in our same situation, and your perspective is the unbalanced one?
(11-12-2017, 12:22 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-10-2017, 02:16 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]I simply don't trust God nor care about his will enough ...

That's the problem. The rest of your concerns are merely a symptom of this.

I don't mean to sound blunt or uncaring (I am not, and am happy to discuss your issues and help you), bit this is your fundamental issue, not circumcision, or any other "injustice" to see in the Old Testament.

You want the universe to conform to your own personal standards.

Because it does not you dismiss it. If your standards are the rule, though, then there is no objective standard. If no objective standards, then you have no reason or right to assert any single moral standard is obligatory.

And yet this whole discussion is precisely about the morality of a certain actions ...

On this issue, yeah, I absolutely do want it to conform to my standards.  Who doesn't want the universe to conform to their standards?

With that said, I recognize that if the universe were to conform to any one person's standards, everyone else would be unhappy with it because everyone has different ideas of what a perfect universe would look like.  What hurts me is the knowledge that, out of all the potential universes with me in it, God decided that the best one was one where I would be circumcised and would be miserable with that situation, or, less selfishly, that God decided the best possible universe was one where the most influential culture on the planet at our current time would be one that would adopt such a barbaric practice, mass mutilate its male infants, and encourage other countries to do the same.  I feel like I'm living in the Twilight Zone.  Additionally, it hurts me to think that maybe, objectively, it really is the best thing for me to be circumcised.  It's obviously not the best thing for everybody, or even most.  But somehow, it's best for me and most Americans?  It doesn't make sense to me, but even if it is somehow objectively better, that doesn't make me any happier about it.  Anyone who is confronted with the possibility that God found it better for something to hurt them than not is going to have some kind of anger at God to work through.  Would you say that a parent who lost a child to a drunk driver was unbalanced by responding negatively to someone telling them that it was because God knew that was the best for everybody?  

Now, once we've boiled it down to this being the universe that God decided to bring into existence, and like it or not, there is no way to change what God has done, what does it matter whether I am not happy about that situation?  How do you intend to help me with this?  Are we going to find a way for me to convincingly lie to myself, that this doesn't bother me and maybe is something I should kind of be happy about, consider myself blessed that I was born in the only Western country that does this?  How do you intend to help me?  How do you give hope to the hopeless?

Quote:I am quite offended that you dismiss my experiences as trivial. Clearly it's just because I'm ignorant of things ... you are the expert. Your perspective is the only one, and my experience does not matter.

May I submit, that it is equally as plausible that my attitude matches with most other men in our same situation, and your perspective is the unbalanced one?

I'm not dismissing your experience.  I'm saying I don't know what your experience is.  But given how many Americans don't have even a basic understanding of what they are missing or how it effects them, and when they are first confronted with the suggestion that what makes them physically male is incomplete, damaged and partially defective, they lash out and deny that any harm has been done to them.  It is not unreasonable for me to wonder if, because of your position, you may not fully understand it either.  I also recognized that maybe you do fully understand it and still hold the position that you do.

Your attitude does match the attitude of the majority of circumcised men in this country.  My attitude matches that of the many circumcised men in non-circumcising countries.  They recognize they are missing something important that they can never get back.  It is not beyond credulity to suggest the reason for the attitude in this country is because of ignorance of the issue.  If your attitude is one that was determined without the knowledge that you are missing something important, that you can never get it back, it certainly doesn't suggest that your position is any more balanced than mine, because yours would be based on a false narrative.  If you acknowledge all of these things and it still doesn't bother you, then we can try to determine whose position is more balanced and why.
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