FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Pope Seeks to Change the "Lord's Prayer"
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
(12-07-2017, 04:52 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Well said to each of the posters.  But isn't the Pope simply upholding the law of 'Lex orandi, lex credendi'?  The law of prayer is the law of belief.  As our societies change and languages evolve, words take on different meanings for different people.  I think the Pope is reacting to many who say, "why would God lead us into temptation?"  I am not a student of Aramaic but I would love to know what Our Lord's words originally were.  Maybe the Latin was really trying to say "lead us away from temptation" (just a wild guess) but I admit I don't understand the English version "lead us not into temptation" and there has been a disconnect there for me personally for a long time.

That's ironic that you mention that. "Lex orandi, lex credendi" is often the reason that most trad Catholics say things should NOT change. As we pray, so we believe is also conversely true. As we believe, so we pray. Prayer teaches and nurtures belief, and prayer is informed by and flows from belief. God does not Himself change. The content and truth of the Faith does not change. The Holy Spirit may reveal truths over time, but these things were true all along. If the Faith does not change as societies and languages evolve, why should our worship drastically change?

As I understand, throughout Church history, small changes were made because they better reflected the truth, not necessarily because of changes in the way people understood things. Vatican II was really the first thing that introduced the concept of worship being tailored to the way worshippers understood things.

Interesting point about what the Aramaic actually says though. Considering that they recently changed the English translation of the mass because the former one wasn't quite accurate, I wish I knew the Aramaic too. However, my opinion is that the bad English translation of the mass was poor implementation, not a misunderstanding of the original Latin. The current NO English mass translation is closer match to the English text in my 1962 missal than the previous one. Considering the Lord's Prayer appears the same in the Vulgate, I'd be willing to say that changing the prayer is less about the accuracy of translation and more about changing how people perceive it.
OK, so you all have me scratching my head somewhat.  Here is a quote from the Catechism:

CCC 2846 This petition goes to the root of the preceding one, for our sins result from our consenting to temptation; we therefore ask our Father not to "lead" us into temptation. It is difficult to translate the Greek verb used by a single English word: the Greek means both "do not allow us to enter into temptation" and "do not let us yield to temptation."1"God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one";2 on the contrary, he wants to set us free from evil. We ask him not to allow us to take the way that leads to sin. We are engaged in the battle "between flesh and spirit"; this petition implores the Spirit of discernment and strength.

It would seem that both of these translations are somewhat less "God is the tempter" and more of the "God help us stay away from temptation or not give in".  If I recall correctly, the Latin flowed from the Greek.  So is it possible that the Latin translation was less than perfect? 

So I am going to throw this out there --- Since he is the Pope (yeah, I know, I know there are debates on that) but if he is the Pope, is it possible that he is being led by the Holy Spirit to clarify a bit of a mistranslation?  (After all, wouldn't that be his job?)

Both of the translations in the CCC seem to more in line with what the intent of the existing language really is.  Especially given James 1:13, I.e. God doesn't tempt anyone.  

Could it be the prompting of the Holy Spirit? 
(12-07-2017, 07:40 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]OK, so you all have me scratching my head somewhat.  Here is a quote from the Catechism:

CCC 2846 This petition goes to the root of the preceding one, for our sins result from our consenting to temptation; we therefore ask our Father not to "lead" us into temptation. It is difficult to translate the Greek verb used by a single English word: the Greek means both "do not allow us to enter into temptation" and "do not let us yield to temptation."1"God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one";2 on the contrary, he wants to set us free from evil. We ask him not to allow us to take the way that leads to sin. We are engaged in the battle "between flesh and spirit"; this petition implores the Spirit of discernment and strength.

It would seem that both of these translations are somewhat less "God is the tempter" and more of the "God help us stay away from temptation or not give in".  If I recall correctly, the Latin flowed from the Greek.  So is it possible that the Latin translation was less than perfect? 

So I am going to throw this out there --- Since he is the Pope (yeah, I know, I know there are debates on that) but if he is the Pope, is it possible that he is being led by the Holy Spirit to clarify a bit of a mistranslation?  (After all, wouldn't that be his job?)

Both of the translations in the CCC seem to more in line with what the intent of the existing language really is.  Especially given James 1:13, I.e. God doesn't tempt anyone.  

Could it be the prompting of the Holy Spirit? 
Peace.....tks for looking up all of this info - I understand easily that the translation from Greek to English could be weak - and I have spoken with Greeks who have said this is why their liturgy is so important in that language, because of the originality and meaning of words - I believe their meanings to their words are more specific.  Could this be one of the reasons they have not come on board with us Catholics but remained Orthodox??  I know myself just in a general conversation, I like to be direct and not evasive with words because there is misunderstanding. I was also told once by a Greek orthod priest, that the Greek liturgy is a more poetic and divine language and I understood his comment to mean because it originated more from the beginnings - Aramaic, Greek, Latin and soforth....we do need words that are truth, understandable and not be led into the tower of babel!  This is everyone speaking different languages and not understanding each other.  angeltime
Does he plan on changing the Latin, too? There is no doubt that it has said 'lead us not into temptation' since St Jerome translated the Gospels over 1600 years ago. If he changes the English, I'll just recite it Latin.
(12-07-2017, 08:10 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]Does he plan on changing the Latin, too? There is no doubt that it has said 'lead us not into temptation' since St Jerome translated the Gospels over 1600 years ago. If he changes the English, I'll just recite it Latin.
Peace.....a friend told me recently that it will take one letter out of the Vatican to end latin masses - scary thought!  Good plan to pray your prayers in latin - St Clare of Assisi did all her prayers in latin - even private prayers.  The Greek Priest I spoke with years ago, told me that the Greek used during their Liturgy is not the same Greek used at home - the Liturgy is a more ancient Greek that was used in the Liturgy then and still now.  This is why you can find people in the Greek Orthod Church who don't speak a word of Greek, but are only interested in how the Liturgy is prayed.  This is how it is for the traditional latin.....angeltime
Totally unnecessary. He's all about change.
On the fisheaters page it explains this well, let us not succomb to temptations. I am reminded not to fall and ask God to lead me. When I say the hail Mary, it's fine to translate the 'hour of death' as the 'end of life' and it's not much difference privately recited except you're not hearing the word death so many times.
This is exactly why I pray the Lord's Prayer in Latin. I have also memorised the Latin versions of Hail Mary, Apostles' Creed, Hail Holy Queen, and I pray the Rosary in Latin. It's a very small effort to make to preserve the traditions of the Catholic Church.

The man who currently keeps the Throne of St. Peter warm won't dare touch the Latin prayers.
(12-08-2017, 12:04 PM)gmzhok Wrote: [ -> ]On the fisheaters page it explains this well, let us not succomb to temptations. I am reminded not to fall and ask God to lead me. When I say the hail Mary, it's fine to translate the 'hour of death' as the 'end of life' and it's not much difference privately recited except you're not hearing the word death so many times.

Peace.....do  you think its better to say "end of our life - ON EARTH"?? - the word death automatically means on earth to me....angeltime Pray
Well...at least the Protestants who have no intention of converting are happy about this.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/12/0...pting.html


While I am willing to accept a better translation, it's just the fact it's coming from this man that makes me so unwilling and skeptical. I sadly just do not trust this man.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5