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(12-12-2017, 03:07 PM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ][Image: Akin-OURFATHER.jpg]
James Tissot, “The Lord’s Prayer”, ca. 1890


BLOGS  |  DEC. 11, 2017
No, Pope Francis Is Not Changing the Lord’s Prayer
This is a classic case of the pope saying something and the media distorting it.

Jimmy Akin

"Newspapers and websites erupted over the weekend with headlines like:



Shame on all of them.
The pope didn’t call for any changes.
This is a classic case of the pope saying something and the media going hog-wild and completely distorting it."


More here: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-aki...rds-prayer

Ok, so Pope Francis is not calling for the Our Father to be reworded as reported. What is is doing is ALLOWING the change, which is as bad as if he wants to change it himself. Here we have collegiality at its best, a pope allowing bishops here and bishops there to change Church teaching (communion for adultry in St America, and the Lord's prayer, the translation presided over by many popes, by the French bishops}.

What then is the role of a Pope?
Did you notice who the article was written by? LOL
Ugh Jimmy Akin...does that guy ever stop being a papal pollyanna?

I'm sorry, but I thought I read that PF wanted the Italian version re-worded...so how does that fit in for ole Jimmy Boy?
Well, he 'suggested' that the Italian Bishops change it, after he had approved the French Bishops' lousy translation. That's what you get when you've got Hierarchs who know less Latin than a first year student of the language!
*snip*
(12-12-2017, 05:14 PM)cassini Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-12-2017, 03:07 PM)In His Love Wrote: [ -> ][Image: Akin-OURFATHER.jpg]
James Tissot, “The Lord’s Prayer”, ca. 1890


BLOGS  |  DEC. 11, 2017
No, Pope Francis Is Not Changing the Lord’s Prayer
This is a classic case of the pope saying something and the media distorting it.

Jimmy Akin

"Newspapers and websites erupted over the weekend with headlines like:



Shame on all of them.
The pope didn’t call for any changes.
This is a classic case of the pope saying something and the media going hog-wild and completely distorting it."


More here: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-aki...rds-prayer

Ok, so Pope Francis is not calling for the Our Father to be reworded as reported. What is is doing is ALLOWING the change, which is as bad as if he wants to change it himself. Here we have collegiality at its best, a pope allowing bishops here and bishops there to change Church teaching (communion for adultry in St America, and the Lord's prayer, the translation presided over by many popes, by the French bishops}.

What then is the role of a Pope?
Peace.....THIS Pope's role is to stir the pot - if he puts suggestive comments out there, somebody (or more) will latch on to it and either request changes or subtely make them.  (possibly) - these are the comments now about Vat 11 - it was evasive and left up to one's own discretion and what happened - confusion and error.  angeltime Advent wreath
(12-07-2017, 04:52 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Well said to each of the posters.  But isn't the Pope simply upholding the law of 'Lex orandi, lex credendi'?  The law of prayer is the law of belief.  As our societies change and languages evolve, words take on different meanings for different people.  I think the Pope is reacting to many who say, "why would God lead us into temptation?"  I am not a student of Aramaic but I would love to know what Our Lord's words originally were.  Maybe the Latin was really trying to say "lead us away from temptation" (just a wild guess) but I admit I don't understand the English version "lead us not into temptation" and there has been a disconnect there for me personally for a long time.


Let me resurrect this thread.

Maybe the literal is not so far off according to this passage of scripture: 


“And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.”
(2 Thes 2)
(12-24-2017, 06:35 PM)cassini Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-07-2017, 04:52 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Well said to each of the posters.  But isn't the Pope simply upholding the law of 'Lex orandi, lex credendi'?  The law of prayer is the law of belief.  As our societies change and languages evolve, words take on different meanings for different people.  I think the Pope is reacting to many who say, "why would God lead us into temptation?"  I am not a student of Aramaic but I would love to know what Our Lord's words originally were.  Maybe the Latin was really trying to say "lead us away from temptation" (just a wild guess) but I admit I don't understand the English version "lead us not into temptation" and there has been a disconnect there for me personally for a long time.


Let me resurrect this thread.

Maybe the literal is not so far off according to this passage of scripture: 


“And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.”
(2 Thes 2)

Hi Cassini: I think I understand where you are going with this but, in my opinion, if we interpret this scripture as saying that the damned are indeed damned because God caused them to believe a false teaching by sending them the operation of error, then there is the implication that their damnation is directly caused by God and in the next few verses we must be content to believe that the saved are similarly pre-destined by God to be saved.  In the sense that God does not desire that any should perish, I believe that God wills that all will find and embrace the truth.  However, He also wills that all should have free-will lest their love of Him be forced upon them.  In order to have free-will you must have a choice.  "Today I place before you life and death ..." God presents us with choices.  So wouldn't this "operation of error" be a choice that He presents to them but does not cause them to accept?  If so, then conversely the wording that Pope Francis proposed, may actually be closer to the true intent of the words from the original Greek.  (Also see, Catechism 2846)
(12-26-2017, 03:49 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-24-2017, 06:35 PM)cassini Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-07-2017, 04:52 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Well said to each of the posters.  But isn't the Pope simply upholding the law of 'Lex orandi, lex credendi'?  The law of prayer is the law of belief.  As our societies change and languages evolve, words take on different meanings for different people.  I think the Pope is reacting to many who say, "why would God lead us into temptation?"  I am not a student of Aramaic but I would love to know what Our Lord's words originally were.  Maybe the Latin was really trying to say "lead us away from temptation" (just a wild guess) but I admit I don't understand the English version "lead us not into temptation" and there has been a disconnect there for me personally for a long time.

Let me resurrect this thread.

Maybe the literal is not so far off according to this passage of scripture: 

“And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.”
(2 Thes 2)

Hi Cassini: I think I understand where you are going with this but, in my opinion, if we interpret this scripture as saying that the damned are indeed damned because God caused them to believe a false teaching by sending them the operation of error, then there is the implication that their damnation is directly caused by God and in the next few verses we must be content to believe that the saved are similarly pre-destined by God to be saved.  In the sense that God does not desire that any should perish, I believe that God wills that all will find and embrace the truth.  However, He also wills that all should have free-will lest their love of Him be forced upon them.  In order to have free-will you must have a choice.  "Today I place before you life and death ..." God presents us with choices.  So wouldn't this "operation of error" be a choice that He presents to them but does not cause them to accept?  If so, then conversely the wording that Pope Francis proposed, may actually be closer to the true intent of the words from the original Greek.  (Also see, Catechism 2846)

Never in the time that I have said the Our father did I interpret it as anything other than 'help us avoid temptation.'
Accordingly, we must similarly interpret the above as saying that God allows temptation to test us rather than bringing about temptation to trap us. Then, as you say prostrateinawe, we can chose to be tempted or not. In our day we are told Pope Leo XII heard God and Satan in conversation that allowed the Devil 100 years to try to destroy the Catholic Church and thereby millions of souls. In other words we in our time have probably had to resist temptation as never before. 'but deliver us from evil Amen.'

Finally, I for one will continue with the translation in Englism.

Interesting, a lady today told me the Irish Gaelic of the Our Father phrases it differently.

Ár n-arán laethúil tabhair dúinn inniu
agus maith dúinn ár bhfiacha
mar amhaithimidne dár bhféichiúna féin
agus ná lig sinn i gcathú,
ach sar sinn ó olc.
Óir is leatsa an ríocht
agus an chumhacht
agus an ghlóir.
Trí shaol na saol.
Amen

Translates to
Give us our daily bread today
and good for us our debts as we go to our own debtors
and do not let us fight, but we are sore from evil.
Gold is yours with the kingdom and the power and the glory. Through life. Amen
(12-26-2017, 04:59 PM)cassini Wrote: [ -> ]prostrateinawe
cassini
prostrateinawe

Never in the time that I have said the Our father did I interpret it as anything other than 'help us avoid temptation.'

Hi Cassini:  That is interesting because I have had internal conflicts on this phrase from the Lord's Prayer in English for many years.  In French, it is interpreted more or less "do not submit us to temptation" which for me had more of the connotation "do not allow us to succumb to temptation" but was still a border line question for me.  But the English was a bit more peculiar for me as the connotation was more direct that it is God who leads people into temptation and we therefore are praying that He not do so.  I guess I can see both sides of the fence, those who want to maintain constancy and avoid change (which is not a bad thing) and those whose minds desire clarity (also not a bad thing).
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