FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Pope Seeks to Change the "Lord's Prayer"
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
https://www.vanguardngr.com/2017/12/pope...ds-prayer/

Actually, having lived in France, this one positive thing that Francis is doing that I can support.  

It is not the nature of God to tempt his children to sin.  That would make him somewhat of a sadist.  The change to "do not let us fall into temptation" in the Lord's Prayer, IMHO, is much more preferable theologically than "lead us not into temptation." 

Of course many point to God "hardening" the hearts of some.  But if one looks at it as hardening caused by resistance (like a callous) one can liken this hardening spoken of in the bible to a spiritual callous caused by resisting the prompting of God's Spirit or resisting His love.

I don't often agree with Francis, but here I can find common ground.
The wording he is proposing is how the Church has always understood the meaning, but why not just remind people that is what is meant, rather than changing the words as they have been handed down?
(12-07-2017, 03:13 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: [ -> ]The wording he is proposing is how the Church has always understood the meaning, but why not just remind people that is what is meant, rather than changing the words as they have been handed down?

Because this way, he's changing the very words of Our Blessed Lord in Holy Scripture, at least as the Church has received them from St Jerome's translation, and the Anglophone Church from the Rheims New Testament!

Quote:The Gospel Arccording to St Matthew, Chapter 6, Verse13
et ne inducas nos in temptationem sed libera nos a malo (St Jerome's Vulgate)

And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. (Challoner Revision of the [b]Douai-Rheims)[/b]

I've been saying for years that those who want to destroy the Church (HAH! Good luck with that!), like Francis, have adopted a tactic from the Trotskyite communists, the concept of 'permanent revolution'. Keep the revolution going with new prayers, new translations of the Liturgy, new devotions, etc., so that the Faithful find it more and more difficult to discern the True Divine and Catholic Faith amid the revolutionary verbiage.
(12-07-2017, 03:32 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-07-2017, 03:13 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: [ -> ]The wording he is proposing is how the Church has always understood the meaning, but why not just remind people that is what is meant, rather than changing the words as they have been handed down?

Because this way, he's changing the very words of Our Blessed Lord in Holy Scripture, at least as the Church has received them from St Jerome's translation, and the Anglophone Church from the Rheims New Testament!

Quote:The Gospel Arccording to St Matthew, Chapter 6, Verse13
et ne inducas nos in temptationem sed libera nos a malo (St Jerome's Vulgate)

And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. (Challoner Revision of the [b]Douai-Rheims)[/b]

I've been saying for years that those who want to destroy the Church (HAH! Good luck with that!), like Francis, have adopted a tactic from the Trotskyite communists, the concept of 'permanent revolution'. Keep the revolution going with new prayers, new translations of the Liturgy, new devotions, etc., so that the Faithful find it more and more difficult to discern the True Divine and Catholic Faith amid the revolutionary verbiage.
Peace.....I have always understood "lead us not into temptation" as to mean "help us not to be led into temptation" "keep us away from temptation", I know it can seem like a play on words, however if one really believes our God is a good and loving God leading us away from sin and into holiness, they hopefully will see and understand this.  I too, am concerned about the many many changes taking place.  We change our words and rubrics more than our socks.  It's embarrassing when bringing someone into the Church - it was this, and now that, and in future the plan is....it's too much.  Blessings, angeltime
(12-07-2017, 03:32 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-07-2017, 03:13 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: [ -> ]The wording he is proposing is how the Church has always understood the meaning, but why not just remind people that is what is meant, rather than changing the words as they have been handed down?

Because this way, he's changing the very words of Our Blessed Lord in Holy Scripture, at least as the Church has received them from St Jerome's translation, and the Anglophone Church from the Rheims New Testament!

Quote:The Gospel Arccording to St Matthew, Chapter 6, Verse13
et ne inducas nos in temptationem sed libera nos a malo (St Jerome's Vulgate)

And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. (Challoner Revision of the [b]Douai-Rheims)[/b]

I've been saying for years that those who want to destroy the Church (HAH! Good luck with that!), like Francis, have adopted a tactic from the Trotskyite communists, the concept of 'permanent revolution'. Keep the revolution going with new prayers, new translations of the Liturgy, new devotions, etc., so that the Faithful find it more and more difficult to discern the True Divine and Catholic Faith amid the revolutionary verbiage.
Peace.....it seems to me also, that when we have to continuously be learning something new, it prevents us from delving deeper into meanings which cause growth in the spirit.  This way we are having to replace and learn so often, that it could actually lead to giving up or feeling psychologically depleted!  I respect the Orthodox who never change anything, and yet are fitting in to all the generations of families they have had.  I think its time to stay with Jesus and the Apostles and stop conforming to what so many people want; they need to conform to the Church and the Church's teachings.  My mom was raised in the Latin, then changed to the Novus Ordo and then the Latin came on again.  So, one day she asked the priest, "How many times in one lifetime, do you want me to change?"  I have a friend who said she has more prayer books with variations than one really needs to learn about God and when she attends Bible Study Groups, people show up with different versions of the Bible.  Not good....We have to get on the same page.  God help us and love us.....angeltime Incense
Well said to each of the posters.  But isn't the Pope simply upholding the law of 'Lex orandi, lex credendi'?  The law of prayer is the law of belief.  As our societies change and languages evolve, words take on different meanings for different people.  I think the Pope is reacting to many who say, "why would God lead us into temptation?"  I am not a student of Aramaic but I would love to know what Our Lord's words originally were.  Maybe the Latin was really trying to say "lead us away from temptation" (just a wild guess) but I admit I don't understand the English version "lead us not into temptation" and there has been a disconnect there for me personally for a long time.
(12-07-2017, 04:52 PM)prostrateinawe Wrote: [ -> ]Well said to each of the posters.  But isn't the Pope simply upholding the law of 'Lex orandi, lex credendi'?  The law of prayer is the law of belief.  As our societies change and languages evolve, words take on different meanings for different people.  I think the Pope is reacting to many who say, "why would God lead us into temptation?"  I am not a student of Aramaic but I would love to know what Our Lord's words originally were.  Maybe the Latin was really trying to say "lead us away from temptation" (just a wild guess) but I admit I don't understand the English version "lead us not into temptation" and there has been a disconnect there for me personally for a long time.
Peace.....do you think it could mean - do not permit us to go into temptation - as He ordains and permits our circumstances, right?? angeltime Huh
This whole thing has been baffling to me, honestly. I can't speak for the Italian translation. However, I am a native English speaker, and I'm fairly certain that I have a better proficiency with the language than pope Francis does. It never occurred to me that the English language translation of the Lord's Prayer could possibly mean that God tempts us to sin. Even as a child learning the prayer, I never misunderstood the meaning. Furthermore, no one I've ever met who is also a native English speaker has ever misunderstood the meaning. People who are not native speakers have told me that English is actually pretty hard to learn. The "rules" of the language are inconsistent, and there is a lot of context and connotation that can be easy to miss. 

I don't know what brought about the change in the French translation. The English speaking world has never complained about the English translation, as far as I know. Seeing that the current prayer already conveys the correct meaning to the vast majority of people, I hope he just leaves it alone. It's really strange that he's picked this hill to fight on.

Even if it seems to be a little ambiguous, I don't have a problem with it. While God does not tempt us Himself, He certainly does allow us to be tempted at times. We should be asking ourselves what will happen to peoples' faith if his new translation minimizes that fact, or even negates it. When people experience temptation in their lives and grasp at our Lord's Prayer in defense, will they curse God because the new translation indicates that He shouldn't allow us to be tempted? Will they conclude that they're not actually being tempted, and what they're about to do is okay, because God doesn't allow us to be tempted?
Instead of trying to change everything that has been set in stone for the past 2,000 years...I'd like to see this Pope change himself, most notably his atrocious theology and bankrupt philosophy.
(12-07-2017, 06:25 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Instead of trying to change everything that has been set in stone for the past 2,000 years...I'd like to see this Pope change himself, most notably his atrocious theology and bankrupt philosophy.

helpsmiley
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5