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I've recently kinda come to terms with the fact that I believe in eugenics.  I think that the state should implement policies to foster the genetic health and potential of a society.  This seems self evident to me, and the only rationale I can see to side step it is post-modern relativism (how do we know what is genetically "good"?) or saying "that's what the Nazis did."  Those are both stupid rejoinders though.  That isn't to say that I think abortion or euthanasia should be the methods used, but there are plenty of ways to boost a nation's IQ/health/traits/looks without murder (incentives, genetic testing, education, etc.).  My primary reservation is that the State as it currently exists is in no place to make determinations like this.  In a well-ordered Christian society I think it could be done though with an eye toward cultivating the intellect, reason, beauty, etc.

So from a Catholic perspective, why or how is this wrong?
(01-29-2018, 09:01 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]I've recently kinda come to terms with the fact that I believe in eugenics.  I think that the state should implement policies to foster the genetic health and potential of a society.  This seems self evident to me, and the only rationale I can see to side step it is post-modern relativism (how do we know what is genetically "good"?) or saying "that's what the Nazis did."  Those are both stupid rejoinders though.  That isn't to say that I think abortion or euthanasia should be the methods used, but there are plenty of ways to boost a nation's IQ/health/traits/looks without murder (incentives, genetic testing, education, etc.).  My primary reservation is that the State as it currently exists is in no place to make determinations like this.  In a well-ordered Christian society I think it could be done though with an eye toward cultivating the intellect, reason, beauty, etc.

So from a Catholic perspective, why or how is this wrong?

Well I know you don't want to hear the argumentum reductio ad nazi, but Eugenics leads to the same practices the Nazis did.  All human life is sacred, because all human life contains an eternal soul created by God.  Eugenics leads to the belief that some lives are more sacred than others, and eventually we are left with a question...which life is more sacred and what do we do with it?

Is a European life more sacred than a Semetic one, or an African one, or an Asian one?  How do we determine what is genetically "good"?  Is Negro life more superior to the Caucasian since Negros tend to be physically more athletic and agile?  Is the Mongoloid life superior to the Negroid and Caucasoid life, because they tend to have higher IQs?  How do you gather all the qualities of each when genetics can only come from two hosts, how do you do this without engaging in Dr Mengele/Morreau and genetically manipulate life in a test-tube ala Brave New World?  To maximize whatever we determine is "good" ---resting on the unproven presupposition that we can even make such a determination--- will inevitably result in babies being formed in vitro, and thus the question will eventually lead to human relationships themselves.  If we make babies in labs to ensure that every gene is "pure", then what is to be done about sex...well greater thinkers than I understood that eventually the State would lead towards sex crimes, since sex leads to procreation and that procreation may carry with it "inferior" genes.

Yet we have not even begun to ask what about those suffering from down syndrome and other genetic defects?  Are we to allow them to die, whether a quick euthanasia, or simply through neglect as medical science will be more focused on curing diseases, than genetic disorders, since Eugenics will eventually solve that problem.  Eugenics eventually is boiled down to "might is right" since only the strongest of races should survive, since the goal is a "pure" race.  Eventually it doesn't matter if you are crafting laws to encourage racial purification, or discourage racial corruption ala the Nazis, or if you straight up and murder them like the Nazis, or you have a two-tiered society like the Southern antebellum US, or the fictional world of Gattica...you still are eradicating a race of people to perpetuate a farcical, bankrupt, deceitful ideology.

A well-ordered truly Christian society cares more about the state of the soul, than the superficial temporal body that will eventually render to ashes within a generation.

Eugeneics being mentioned in a "Christian" society reeks of perfidious Protestantism all with its bankrupt philosophies. Eugenics is bad and in the words of Huey Lewis "Sometimes Bad is Bad."
Eugenics is something that if the Church, or a Christian state, urged that I would have to renounce my faith or find another state to live. It’s that personal to me and I’m not a liberal that “goes on feelings.”   Rolleyes

Here is a true story for you: My father is a Russian army guy. He would be the kind of guy you see on patriotic posters. My mother is a healthy, smart, beautiful woman from Belarus. If you asked a proponent of eugenics, they would agree they would be a suitable couple. They had a perfect son and then went on to have me: some kind of wild steppe child with illness.

My husband is the product of two people the Soviet Union referred to as “social parasites.” The kind of people that a state eugenics policy would prevent from reproducing. He is big, strong, healthy as an ox and a successful man.
 
Now, this healthy man has chosen to marry me and we have heard all the arguments, from proponents of eugenics (some strong Slavophile nationalists) that it is a waste of healthy seed to be used with a genetically defective woman and as a result, a slight against the state and our race. I cannot explain the psychological torment this has caused but we remind ourselves that we are working every day for salvation. The Kingdom of Heaven is Eternal and man-made states fall.

What is this story meant to show? It shows that a state or humanity can plan these sorts of things, even en masse with eugenics, but God’s Will when it comes to human life is never known. How can the Catholic Church be a strong proponent of life, and the unborn, if we now say that some are better than others? How can we call animal “rights” people logically defective if we reduce man to the level of beast, as in breeding man the way we breed champion hunter horses or show dogs?

Perhaps, it is just my understanding but there has been a greater historical link between Protestantism, Darwinism and eugenics. Pope Pius XI condemned eugenics in Casti connubii. He stated that, “Those who act in this way are at fault in losing sight of the fact that the family is more sacred than the State and that men are begotten not for the earth and for time, but for Heaven and eternity.”
 
I think if we placed more value on our families and raising them traditionally, instead of all this liberal garbage, the need for a eugenics program would be null.

Pope Pius XI went on to say that those not suited for marriage or those that will knowingly have disabled children should be dissuaded from marriage but that it should not be a state policy or a crime. At least, for me, it comes down to a question of which way can I best attain my path to holiness since the goal is to be with Our Lord for eternity and not this material world. If two people find their vocation in marriage, who are we to stop them? However, we can guide them towards a celibate life, or other ways to serve God, than simply marriage and children, if they are intellectually unable to fulfill this vocation.
 
Further… “Public magistrates have no direct power over the bodies of their subjects; therefore, where no crime has taken place and there is no cause present for grave punishment, they can never directly harm, or tamper with the integrity of the body, either for the reasons of eugenics or for any other reason. St. Thomas teaches this when inquiring whether human judges for the sake of preventing future evils can inflict punishment, he admits that the power indeed exists as regards certain other forms of evil, but justly and properly denies it as regards the maiming of the body.”
 
While on the topic of Casti connubii, it is fair to mention sterilization as this is the method of choice for those deemed unfit to breed. If you are against abortion and euthanasia, okay, but sterilization has been widely used in these kinds of programs. Pope Pius XI also stated that, “Furthermore, Christian doctrine establishes, and the light of human reason makes it most clear, that private individuals have no other power over the members of their bodies than that which pertains to their natural ends; and they are not free to destroy or mutilate their members, or in any other way render themselves unfit for their natural functions, except when no other provision can be made for the good of the whole body.” Let's call this vasectomies and having your ovaries removed.
 
Perhaps the only logical and acceptable form of eugenics policy in a Catholic state would be segregation but that would be forced and I am really not educated enough to delve into that topic. At least in that method, human life, and its sanctity, is rather untouched though managed.
 
I do get what you are saying that you can improve a state’s population through incentives, genetic testing, education. Incentives and a Christ-based education are good but what of this genetic testing? In Donum vitae, we learn that genetic testing is okay only if it is done to be better able to treat conditions and prepare the child for life. However, if genetic testing is used as the doorway to abortion or to prevent parents from having children, that leads us to contraception, birth control and full circle to abortion again. Unless the couple lives in a Josephine marriage… but then what is the point of eugenics then?
 
Eugenics dismisses that all human life has value. The special needs children that a eugenics program would see unborn (and people routinely abort) still have gifts to offer. And the social parasites out there are still able to achieve salvation one day, at least, we hope so… But in a Christian country, would be really need this extreme?
 
There are 2 books that make a good read if you are interested, for real, in this topic. “The Image of God: The Catholic Struggle with Eugenics” by Sharon Leon and “Eugenics and Other Evils” by Chesterton.

The Leon book is interesting because it illustrates the eugenics history in America. I am unsure of your ethnicity but I was compelled to read it because I learned how the USA didn’t want Slavs and Eastern Europeans (primarily Poles, Slovaks, Russians…) from having large families. Italians were in that group too. Apparently there already is a Supreme Court decision in your country that permits sterilization of the intellectual disabled and unfit for breeding that has never been overturned. But anyway, I couldn’t imagine a vibrant church without these people, can you?
(01-29-2018, 09:01 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]That isn't to say that I think abortion or euthanasia should be the methods used,...
So from a Catholic perspective, why or how is this wrong?
And yet, give the broken, fallen nature of man, once the state sets eugenics as a goal, that is exactly where it will go.
And I just found this on Twitter. I assume that 'Catholic' Ireland is discussing murdering unborn children with Down Syndrome.

Didn't we fight a war against this garbage in the 1940s? Well, some countries did anyway...(Ireland remained neutral-JW)
Stephen White added,
[url=https://twitter.com/LabourLeftIRE/status/956144500728061952][/url]Labour Left @LabourLeftIRE
Totally agree. Down Syndrome is a disability which abortion can help to eradicate. Irish children deserve to live long lives - not short lives with low IQ & no independence. @DownSyndromeIRL @freesafelegal #repealthe8th https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/956082080923963392 

11:28 AM - 24 Jan 2018
And I suggest you read this article from Wikipedia which points out that the US was the first to introduce eugenics and how the Nazis built on the work already done in the US.

Eugenics in the United States
People with deformities and other genetic conditions are less likely to get married or have children anyway. I don't see society collapsing due to a small percentage of people with genetic problems. In the not so far future Doctors will be able to fix genes with these problems.
(01-29-2018, 02:12 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]And I just found this on Twitter. I assume that 'Catholic' Ireland is discussing murdering unborn children with Down Syndrome.

Didn't we fight a war against this garbage in the 1940s? Well, some countries did anyway...(Ireland remained neutral-JW)
Stephen White added,
[url=https://twitter.com/LabourLeftIRE/status/956144500728061952][/url]Labour Left @LabourLeftIRE
Totally agree. Down Syndrome is a disability which abortion can help to eradicate. Irish children deserve to live long lives - not short lives with low IQ & no independence. @DownSyndromeIRL @freesafelegal #repealthe8th https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/956082080923963392 

11:28 AM - 24 Jan 2018

Gotta love that logic ...

I think it was someone with a pretty low IQ who wrote it.

People deserve to live long lives and be independent ... so if they cannot be independent or live a long life, we should rob them of their independence and life ...
(01-29-2018, 09:01 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]I've recently kinda come to terms with the fact that I believe in eugenics.

There's the first problem...
Because I'm one of those people who many think shouldn't be allowed to have children or even be born. Because I need help in a lot of ways and have many mannerisms and difficulties which are considered "undesireable". I may not seem like it on the internet but in real life I'm not at all what people consider "normal". I thank God that I have the ability to communicate, no matter how difficult but many others like me do not have that priveledge. People take that as a sign that they don't think at all and thus their lives don't have meaning and are just a burden on society.

God created me as I am, I may have problems but those are part of the package. It's not up to some man to come along and define who I am to be like, deciding which parts of me best fits his vision. I am not an art project. I am not a toy. I am a person.
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