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Which is greater, the Holy Sacrifice of the Catholic Mass or the Catholic Faith itself?
Can the two be separated?
(03-06-2018, 07:43 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]Can the two be separated?

Yes.
(03-06-2018, 07:46 PM)Luke3 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:43 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]Can the two be separated?

Yes.


No, they cannot. No Mass, no Faith. No Faith, no Mass.
(03-06-2018, 07:55 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:46 PM)Luke3 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:43 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]Can the two be separated?

Yes.


No, they cannot.  No Mass, no Faith.  No Faith, no Mass.

Respectfully, can you back up your opinion?  Where do you derive that from? Smile
(03-06-2018, 07:43 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]Can the two be separated?

Perhaps we can make a theological distinction, but practically speaking, No.

"Faith without works is dead" (Ja 2.17). But the highest work is Sacrifice. And the supreme Sacrifice is the Sacrifice of Christ on Mt. Calvary. But the Mass is the exact same Sacrifice, sacramentally re-enacted.

To be a true Sacrifice, which is the offering and destruction of a sensible thing to God by a priest to show the His dominion and our subjection, one has to have a Faith in such a God, one needs a priest and one has to offer such a sacrifice as God wants. All of which require, first, Faith.

The essential practical expression of the Catholic Faith is the Mass.

Quote:Without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass there can be no Catholic spirituality, no Christian life, and all that has been the life of the Church through the ages will simply wither and cease to exist. We, then, do have a vital requirement for the true Sacrifice of the Mass, and this is of fundamental importance to us as Catholics. (Msgr. Marcel Lefebvre, Address in Ottawa, Canada Nov. 1975)
(03-06-2018, 08:02 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:43 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]Can the two be separated?

Perhaps we can make a theological distinction, but practically speaking, No.

"Faith without works is dead" (Ja 2.17). But the highest work is Sacrifice. And the supreme Sacrifice is the Sacrifice of Christ on Mt. Calvary. But the Mass is the exact same Sacrifice, sacramentally re-enacted.

To be a true Sacrifice, which is the offering and destruction of a sensible thing to God by a priest to show the His dominion and our subjection, one has to have a Faith in such a God, one needs a priest and one has to offer such a sacrifice as God wants. All of which require, first, Faith.

The essential practical expression of the Catholic Faith is the Mass.

Quote:Without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass there can be no Catholic spirituality, no Christian life, and all that has been the life of the Church through the ages will simply wither and cease to exist. We, then, do have a vital requirement for the true Sacrifice of the Mass, and this is of fundamental importance to us as Catholics. (Msgr. Marcel Lefebvre, Address in Ottawa, Canada Nov. 1975)

First, I would like to say, this is a friendly conversation on my part, I know sometimes people can become emotional on forums, so far its cool.  I think this is a very good question, I would like to see more comments before I make mine.  There is most certainly a distinction and it is plain, trust me, not my opinion.  I hope more people comment?
(03-06-2018, 07:57 PM)Luke3 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:55 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:46 PM)Luke3 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:43 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]Can the two be separated?

Yes.


No, they cannot.  No Mass, no Faith.  No Faith, no Mass.

Respectfully, can you back up your opinion?  Where do you derive that from? Smile

Simple

Because it is a self contradiction. If there is no Faith, what would be the point of having a Mass? And if there's no Mass, then what's the point of having a Christian Faith?
(03-06-2018, 09:02 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:57 PM)Luke3 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:55 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:46 PM)Luke3 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:43 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]Can the two be separated?

Yes.


No, they cannot.  No Mass, no Faith.  No Faith, no Mass.

Respectfully, can you back up your opinion?  Where do you derive that from? Smile

Simple

Because it is a self contradiction.  If there is no Faith, what would be the point of having a Mass?  And if there's no Mass, then what's the point of having a Christian Faith?

You are still giving your own personal opinion, though.  Can you back it up with another source, from which you are deriving your opinion from?  You are saying that the two cannot be separated.  Truly, I am not playing mind games with you.  The answer is so incredible simple.
(03-06-2018, 09:20 PM)Luke3 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 09:02 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:57 PM)Luke3 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:55 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:46 PM)Luke3 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2018, 07:43 PM)GangGreen Wrote: [ -> ]Can the two be separated?

Yes.


No, they cannot.  No Mass, no Faith.  No Faith, no Mass.

Respectfully, can you back up your opinion?  Where do you derive that from? Smile

Simple

Because it is a self contradiction.  If there is no Faith, what would be the point of having a Mass?  And if there's no Mass, then what's the point of having a Christian Faith?

You are still giving your own personal opinion, though.  Can you back it up with another source, from which you are deriving your opinion from?  You are saying that the two cannot be separated.  Truly, I am not playing mind games with you.  The answer is so incredible simple.

I am trying to get everyone to critically think and rather not rely on what they think that they know.
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