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Is it true or not?  If it's true, what are the faithful to think in matters of obedience?

If it's true, how could the new laws of the Church possibly be pleasing to God?  OR, is this all just overblown nonsense?
(03-12-2018, 07:01 PM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]Is it true or not?  If it's true, what are the faithful to think in matters of obedience?

If it's true, how could the new laws of the Church possibly be pleasing to God?  OR, is this all just overblown nonsense?

In a way, isn't the question irrelevant?  Whether they did or did not infiltrate the council, Vatican the Eleventh played out exactly like they would have hoped.  Your issues regarding obedience are going to look the same either way.  So you either join the hermeneutic of continuity crowd or you take a firmer stance against certain particulars that definitely contradict Church teaching in the way SSPX does.
I would say overblown nonsense, probably being pushed by sede sites and assorted conspiracy nutters. Don't get me wrong. The Masons are a major enemy of the Church and our Greco-Roman Catholic civilisation. I'm sure there were high ranking Masons among the Council Fathers, but to say they hijacked the Council is a bit over the top if you ask me. I'm sure they were overjoyed with its results, tho', just as they were with Francis' election to the Papacy. And, no, I don't buy the nutter theory that he's a Mason.
(03-12-2018, 07:01 PM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]Is it true or not?  If it's true, what are the faithful to think in matters of obedience?

If it's true, how could the new laws of the Church possibly be pleasing to God?  OR, is this all just overblown nonsense?

But also yes, they definitely did hijack VII.  It was their stated intention for centuries.  So did the Communists and the Jews.  It's all true.  Every insidious philosophy in the world had its paws in the council because the Church is such a major institution, and possibly the only one capable of standing up to a lot of these forces.  You'd have to be beyond naive to think that everyone and their mother didn't want a piece of the Church.  They still do.  Look at what a good goy Francis has been on the global warming and refugee issues in exchange for cash and publicity.  That doesn't just happen.  That is the work of backroom deals, lobbying, pay to play, etc.  Worry about the council and its implications, but also realize that the subversion of the Church is an ongoing process.
(03-12-2018, 07:44 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]I would say overblown nonsense, probably being pushed by sede sites and assorted conspiracy nutters. Don't get me wrong. The Masons are a major enemy of the Church and our Greco-Roman Catholic civilisation. I'm sure there were high ranking Masons among the Council Fathers, but to say they hijacked the Council is a bit over the top if you ask me. I'm sure they were overjoyed with its results, tho', just as they were with Francis' election to the Papacy. And, no, I don't buy the nutter theory that he's a Mason.

Masonic ideals have bled into secular ideology and consciousness to such an extent by this point that I have trouble understanding why it matters if someone is officially a Mason or not.  The United States was literally built on those ideals, and VII was all about Protestantizing the Church specifically because American Catholics were the big donors who needed to be placated and accommodated in the context of a Protestant country.

Masons were never dangerous because they were a secret society.  They were dangerous because their liberalizing ideas eventually became accepted as common sense ideas.  At least if their ideas were restricted to a small group of people, you could just torture or jail them.
(03-12-2018, 07:53 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2018, 07:44 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]I would say overblown nonsense, probably being pushed by sede sites and assorted conspiracy nutters. Don't get me wrong. The Masons are a major enemy of the Church and our Greco-Roman Catholic civilisation. I'm sure there were high ranking Masons among the Council Fathers, but to say they hijacked the Council is a bit over the top if you ask me. I'm sure they were overjoyed with its results, tho', just as they were with Francis' election to the Papacy. And, no, I don't buy the nutter theory that he's a Mason.

Masonic ideals have bled into secular ideology and consciousness to such an extent by this point that I have trouble understanding why it matters if someone is officially a Mason or not.  The United States was literally built on those ideals, and VII was all about Protestantizing the Church specifically because American Catholics were the big donors who needed to be placated and accommodated in the context of a Protestant country.

Masons were never dangerous because they were a secret society.  They were dangerous because their liberalizing ideas eventually became accepted as common sense ideas.  At least of their ideas were restricted to a small group of people, you could just torture or jail them.
You seem to be thinking of Anglo-American Masonry, which cloaks itself in a pseudo-Christian protestantism. The bulk of Continental Masons are militantly atheistic and into violent revolution. The bragged in 1889 that they had caused the French Revolution, they ordered the killing of Gabriel Garcia-Moreno in Ecuador, they overthrew the Portuguese monarchy in 1910 and murdered King Carlos and his son. They don't have 'liberalising' ideas. They have bloody, murderous revolutionary ideas, and Anglo-American Masonry is hand-in-glove with them, especially through the Scottish Rite.
(03-12-2018, 08:01 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]You seem to be thinking of Anglo-American Masonry, which cloaks itself in a pseudo-Christian protestantism. The bulk of Continental Masons are militantly atheistic and into violent revolution. The bragged in 1889 that they had caused the French Revolution, they ordered the killing of Gabriel Garcia-Moreno in Ecuador, they overthrew the Portuguese monarchy in 1910 and murdered King Carlos and his son. They don't have 'liberalising' ideas. They have bloody, murderous revolutionary ideas, and Anglo-American Masonry is hand-in-glove with them, especially through the Scottish Rite.

Actually, you're right!  I always forget about the distinction between Continental and Anglo.  I wasn't aware that the Scottish Rite was especially sympathetic to the Continental form.  That's very interesting...

Also question: Does the Church's excommunication of those who become Masons apply to Anglo-American as well as Continental?  Or do they not bother with the distinction.

Fun fact: I almost became a Mason several years ago when I was still an atheist and grasping for meaning.  Thankfully I never officially joined, and I made sure to confess everything related to that experience.
(03-12-2018, 07:42 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2018, 07:01 PM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]Is it true or not?  If it's true, what are the faithful to think in matters of obedience?

If it's true, how could the new laws of the Church possibly be pleasing to God?  OR, is this all just overblown nonsense?

In a way, isn't the question irrelevant?  Whether they did or did not infiltrate the council, Vatican the Eleventh played out exactly like they would have hoped.  Your issues regarding obedience are going to look the same either way.  So you either join the hermeneutic of continuity crowd or you take a firmer stance against certain particulars that definitely contradict Church teaching in the way SSPX does.

So is this your only Vatican 11 joke or are there others?
(03-12-2018, 08:22 PM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2018, 07:42 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2018, 07:01 PM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]Is it true or not?  If it's true, what are the faithful to think in matters of obedience?

If it's true, how could the new laws of the Church possibly be pleasing to God?  OR, is this all just overblown nonsense?

In a way, isn't the question irrelevant?  Whether they did or did not infiltrate the council, Vatican the Eleventh played out exactly like they would have hoped.  Your issues regarding obedience are going to look the same either way.  So you either join the hermeneutic of continuity crowd or you take a firmer stance against certain particulars that definitely contradict Church teaching in the way SSPX does.

So is this your only Vatican 11 joke or are there others?

I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF TO YOU
(03-12-2018, 08:36 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2018, 08:22 PM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2018, 07:42 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-12-2018, 07:01 PM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]Is it true or not?  If it's true, what are the faithful to think in matters of obedience?

If it's true, how could the new laws of the Church possibly be pleasing to God?  OR, is this all just overblown nonsense?

In a way, isn't the question irrelevant?  Whether they did or did not infiltrate the council, Vatican the Eleventh played out exactly like they would have hoped.  Your issues regarding obedience are going to look the same either way.  So you either join the hermeneutic of continuity crowd or you take a firmer stance against certain particulars that definitely contradict Church teaching in the way SSPX does.

So is this your only Vatican 11 joke or are there others?

I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF TO YOU

But you WILL
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