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(04-06-2018, 12:59 AM)LaudeturIesus Wrote: [ -> ]...the Church does possess a ministerial power when it comes to deposing a heretical Pope. This opinion avoids the error of Conciliarism by affirming that the Church has no authority over a Pope, nor does the Church herself depose the pope, but only performs the ministerial function required for the deposition. The ministerial function consists of those acts which are necessary to establish that the Pope is indeed a heretic, which is then followed by a public declaratory sentence of the crime. It is God himself, however, who causes the man to fall from the Pontificate, but not without the Church herself performing the ministerial functions necessary to establish the crime.

As much as I'd like to accept the reasoning in this, I find myself incapable of understanding a situation in which a 'declaratory sentence' of deposition could be issued without someone having judged that the Pope was guilty of heresy.
There's quite alot more to the Catholic Church than the acting Pope. If he said tomorrow that he no longer believes in Jesus Christ, the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church, only against one person.
I know everyone will hate me for posting this, but then again, what can you expect from a traditionalist Catholic turned crypto-Orthodox. 

In my opinion, we are seeing the reality of what someone quite smart once said:

"The Catholic Church is an authority/institution that produces rules/teachings. Orthodoxy is a set of rules/teachings that produces an authority/institution."

I don't care who the pope is or whether there even is a pope. All I care about is my bishop and pastor following Right Belief in Christ (Christ's Gospel, the revelations of the Fathers, canons of the Seven Councils, and subsequent teachings that are completely consistent with the preceding doctrines).
(04-06-2018, 06:49 PM)Klemens Wrote: [ -> ]I know everyone will hate me for posting this, but then again, what can you expect from a traditionalist Catholic turned crypto-Orthodox. 

In my opinion, we are seeing the reality of what someone quite smart once said:

"The Catholic Church is an authority/institution that produces rules/teachings. Orthodoxy is a set of rules/teachings that produces an authority/institution."

I don't care who the pope is or whether there even is a pope. All I care about is my bishop and pastor following Right Belief in Christ (Christ's Gospel, the revelations of the Fathers, canons of the Seven Councils, and subsequent teachings that are completely consistent with the preceding doctrines).

Peace.....well, I don't hate you!  I do have a couple of questions though.  What is Crypto-Orthodox?  What happens if one or several of your Bishops goes astray with teaching etc....there is still someone in higher authority to take the matter to and hopefully/seriously does something about it??  (like a Patriarch?)  God bless, angeltime :heart:
(04-06-2018, 06:49 PM)Klemens Wrote: [ -> ]In my opinion, we are seeing the reality of what someone quite smart once said:

"The Catholic Church is an authority/institution that produces rules/teachings. Orthodoxy is a set of rules/teachings that produces an authority/institution."

I don't care who the pope is or whether there even is a pope. All I care about is my bishop and pastor following Right Belief in Christ (Christ's Gospel, the revelations of the Fathers, canons of the Seven Councils, and subsequent teachings that are completely consistent with the preceding doctrines).
 
 No, I don't hate you, but I respectfully disagree with your opinions.  :P
(04-06-2018, 02:49 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-06-2018, 12:59 AM)LaudeturIesus Wrote: [ -> ]...the Church does possess a ministerial power when it comes to deposing a heretical Pope. This opinion avoids the error of Conciliarism by affirming that the Church has no authority over a Pope, nor does the Church herself depose the pope, but only performs the ministerial function required for the deposition. The ministerial function consists of those acts which are necessary to establish that the Pope is indeed a heretic, which is then followed by a public declaratory sentence of the crime. It is God himself, however, who causes the man to fall from the Pontificate, but not without the Church herself performing the ministerial functions necessary to establish the crime.

As much as I'd like to accept the reasoning in this, I find myself incapable of understanding a situation in which a 'declaratory sentence' of deposition could be issued without someone having judged that the Pope was guilty of heresy.

Correct, the Church does not possess the authority to judge the Pope. However, the Church posseses the competency and the right to judge whether or not a proposition of the Pope is materially heretical.

Then pertinacity has to be established. This article goes into more detail: https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.p...tical-pope
(04-06-2018, 07:01 PM)angeltime Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-06-2018, 06:49 PM)Klemens Wrote: [ -> ]I know everyone will hate me for posting this, but then again, what can you expect from a traditionalist Catholic turned crypto-Orthodox. 

In my opinion, we are seeing the reality of what someone quite smart once said:

"The Catholic Church is an authority/institution that produces rules/teachings. Orthodoxy is a set of rules/teachings that produces an authority/institution."

I don't care who the pope is or whether there even is a pope. All I care about is my bishop and pastor following Right Belief in Christ (Christ's Gospel, the revelations of the Fathers, canons of the Seven Councils, and subsequent teachings that are completely consistent with the preceding doctrines).

Peace.....well, I don't hate you!  I do have a couple of questions though.  What is Crypto-Orthodox?  What happens if one or several of your Bishops goes astray with teaching etc....there is still someone in higher authority to take the matter to and hopefully/seriously does something about it??  (like a Patriarch?)  God bless, angeltime :heart:
Thanks for the good spirited response. By crypto-Orthodox I mean that I believe and accept Orthodoxy but for external reasons (for example my family), I simply haven't actually converted. So nominally, I'm Catholic, but I entirely agree with Orthodoxy. Not an easy position, in all honesty. It's even more difficult because, I'm no longer wavering between the two sides, I just cannot ”logistically” make the change.

As for leadership, each bishop is part of a Synod. Each Synod resolves doctrinal controversies between bishops. If the Synod of a local Church (autonomous, autocephalous, etc.) cannot reach an agreement a local council is held. If a local council cannot be held, then an all-Church Council is held. If the all-Church council is fully in line with Tradition, then it is ecumenical and therefore binding.
:heart:Peace.....tks for the response!  Of course I don't expect you to respond again, but wondered if you are not logistically changing because God is interceding and you will end up not changing....just a though to pray about.  I find it difficult in the Church during these times that not much of the upset gets resolved according to the teachings and quickly.  I don't see letting the sheep be so upset and confused being the way to go - not without explanation - which even the Bishops and Cardinals are asking for.....I am the type who likes to get the cards on the table - even the bad news, and then problem solve - not go in circles.  
God bless, angeltime :heart:
(04-07-2018, 04:19 PM)angeltime Wrote: [ -> ]:heart:Peace.....tks for the response!  Of course I don't expect you to respond again, but wondered if you are not logistically changing because God is interceding and you will end up not changing....just a though to pray about.  I find it difficult in the Church during these times that not much of the upset gets resolved according to the teachings and quickly.  I don't see letting the sheep be so upset and confused being the way to go - not without explanation - which even the Bishops and Cardinals are asking for.....I am the type who likes to get the cards on the table - even the bad news, and then problem solve - not go in circles.  
God bless, angeltime :heart:

Thank you for your kind words and insight. For me, given the current crises, Orthodoxy draws me for one very strong reason. Others have posted that we should keep to our parishes/dioceses and to keep away from the terrible madness at the top. That's a good apporach. But ultimately, as Catholics, we have to heed the single top (Rome/pope). It's dogma. Thus, the aforementioned localism is impossible. In Orthodoxy, the localism, detached from the machinations from the rulers, is actually possible. That is, at least to me, a big positive. Poland, for example isn't bound to the liberalism of the Phanar. But, this is my journey. I may be ultimately wrong, but I am willing to be judged by God for seeking right belief rather than right structure.
(04-07-2018, 07:43 PM)Klemens Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-07-2018, 04:19 PM)angeltime Wrote: [ -> ]:heart:Peace.....tks for the response!  Of course I don't expect you to respond again, but wondered if you are not logistically changing because God is interceding and you will end up not changing....just a though to pray about.  I find it difficult in the Church during these times that not much of the upset gets resolved according to the teachings and quickly.  I don't see letting the sheep be so upset and confused being the way to go - not without explanation - which even the Bishops and Cardinals are asking for.....I am the type who likes to get the cards on the table - even the bad news, and then problem solve - not go in circles.  
God bless, angeltime :heart:

Thank you for your kind words and insight. For me, given the current crises, Orthodoxy draws me for one very strong reason. Others have posted that we should keep to our parishes/dioceses and to keep away from the terrible madness at the top. That's a good apporach. But ultimately, as Catholics, we have to heed the single top (Rome/pope). It's dogma. Thus, the aforementioned localism is impossible. In Orthodoxy, the localism, detached from the machinations from the rulers, is actually possible. That is, at least to me, a big positive. Poland, for example isn't bound to the liberalism of the Phanar. But, this is my journey. I may be ultimately wrong, but I am willing to be judged by God for seeking right belief rather than right structure.
Peace.....I understand completely and it is the hungering for what has been watered-down and lost, that many are seeking elsewhere - including myself!  Just the incense alone!  I read recently that when it is thought a pope is heretical, that it goes back to the election process not being valid and that is why it leads to error and heresy.  Before the College of "good" Cardinals can do anything about that, they have to remove the bad Cardinals who were also not put in position legally as a result of the invalid election process.  Apparently, this is what is being worked on now and I'm sure it won't be an easy process to get underway - so we all must pray for the Holy Spirit to move us in the right direction and do some serious cleaning out!  God bless, angeltime :heart:
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