FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: ways to automatically excommunicate yourself
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2
if you have an abortion you are automatically excommunicated from the Church (murder) and have to be absolved by the bishop (usually)

If you promote abortion, same thing... it is called latae sententae excommunication (spelling?), you excommunicate yourself

and there are probably other sins that excommunicate you  that way also

so you people who vote Dem

can forget about calling yourselves Catholic. We know better
(04-11-2018, 01:55 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: [ -> ]if you have an abortion you are automatically excommunicated from the Church (murder) and have to be absolved by the bishop (usually)

If you promote abortion, same thing... it is called latae sententae excommunication (spelling?), you excommunicate yourself

and there are probably other sins that excommunicate you  that way also

so you people who vote Dem

can forget about calling yourselves Catholic. We know better

Canon 1398 says : "A person who procures an abortion effectu secuto incurs a latæ sententiæ excommunication."

This excommunication applies to the woman, doctors, nurses and any assistants who directly cooperate either by counsel, command, or direct assistance. Thus the boyfriend who suggests and encourages and takes the woman to a clinic is a direct participant, for instance.

The effect must follow : only a direct and successful abortion carries the penalty, and only to those who directly participate in a particular abortion. A botched job where the child survives is not an abortion. Some moral theologians used to argue that a partial birth abortion (whole grotesque and gravely sinful) also did not carry this penalty because once "born" it is not an abortion. Also, the penalty was originally done because the crime was done internally to the woman and no one saw a baby (which would make it clear it was murder), meaning the Church was trying to say "this is really bad, even if you can't see a child, and so bad, we're going to excommunicate you if you do it." A way of calling attention to the evil of abortion, whereas the evil of murder was already clear. In 1988 the CDF and Council for the Interpretation of Canon Law made clear that "abortion" covers all such procedures, ending the doubt/


The penalty does not apply to politicians who support abortion, nor to those who vote for such politicians as they are not a direct cause of any particular abortion (they are too far removed for any particular case). It does not mean that they do not commit serious sin, simply that the canonical penalty does not apply.

It also does not apply if the person is unaware of the penalty. It's still a grave sin, but there is no excommunication.

In conclusion, Grace Mary, you take the Church's law too far in applying it to people who vote for Democrats. Also, an excommunicate is still a "Catholic" but one who is under a penalty and cannot receive any of the Sacraments, Blessings, Indulgences, Suffrages or any other benefit of the Church. It does not make one no longer "Catholic", but an "excommunicated" Catholic.
And what have establishment Republicans done about abortion anyway? From  wrathfuldove.org, written in 2008:

Quote:Consider that it has been over 30 years since Roe v. Wade, and we are no closer to overturning that decision today. More importantly, Republicans have had control of all three branches of government for six of the last eight years. From 2000 to 2006, we had a Republican majority in Congress, a Republican President, and 7 Republican appointed judges out of the 9 justices on the Supreme Court. And yet, no legislation was ever passed to challenge Roe v. Wade.
 
In addition to that are the pro-death attitudes of both Democrat and Republican neo-cons who are always pushing for us to invade countries, topple other people's leaders, and otherwise start wars. Murder is evil whether it stems from abortion or unjust war -- and they're pushing for one now, in Syria, even as we speak -- a war that, given who's involved, could so extremely easily morph into WWIII.
(04-11-2018, 04:20 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-11-2018, 01:55 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: [ -> ]if you have an abortion you are automatically excommunicated from the Church (murder) and have to be absolved by the bishop (usually)

If you promote abortion, same thing... it is called latae sententae excommunication (spelling?), you excommunicate yourself

and there are probably other sins that excommunicate you  that way also

so you people who vote Dem

can forget about calling yourselves Catholic. We know better

Canon 1398 says : "A person who procures an abortion effectu secuto incurs a latæ sententiæ excommunication."

This excommunication applies to the woman, doctors, nurses and any assistants who directly cooperate either by counsel, command, or direct assistance. Thus the boyfriend who suggests and encourages and takes the woman to a clinic is a direct participant, for instance.

The effect must follow : only a direct and successful abortion carries the penalty, and only to those who directly participate in a particular abortion. A botched job where the child survives is not an abortion. Some moral theologians used to argue that a partial birth abortion (whole grotesque and gravely sinful) also did not carry this penalty because once "born" it is not an abortion. Also, the penalty was originally done because the crime was done internally to the woman and no one saw a baby (which would make it clear it was murder), meaning the Church was trying to say "this is really bad, even if you can't see a child, and so bad, we're going to excommunicate you if you do it." A way of calling attention to the evil of abortion, whereas the evil of murder was already clear. In 1988 the CDF and Council for the Interpretation of Canon Law made clear that "abortion" covers all such procedures, ending the doubt/


The penalty does not apply to politicians who support abortion, nor to those who vote for such politicians as they are not a direct cause of any particular abortion (they are too far removed for any particular case). It does not mean that they do not commit serious sin, simply that the canonical penalty does not apply.

It also does not apply if the person is unaware of the penalty. It's still a grave sin, but there is no excommunication.

In conclusion, Grace Mary, you take the Church's law too far in applying it to people who vote for Democrats. Also, an excommunicate is still a "Catholic" but one who is under a penalty and cannot receive any of the Sacraments, Blessings, Indulgences, Suffrages or any other benefit of the Church. It does not make one no longer "Catholic", but an "excommunicated" Catholic.

i never said it made them no longer Catholic... well, maybe i did imply that but i know all that you say here except... hmm... where is that part i didn't agree with... The penalty doesn't apply to politicians?

yes it does, if they promote abortion. Every time they refer to themselves as "pro choice" they are promoting abortion and that is an excommunicatable offense
(04-11-2018, 05:02 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: [ -> ]And what have establishment Republicans done about abortion anyway? From  wrathfuldove.org, written in 2008:

Quote:Consider that it has been over 30 years since Roe v. Wade, and we are no closer to overturning that decision today. More importantly, Republicans have had control of all three branches of government for six of the last eight years. From 2000 to 2006, we had a Republican majority in Congress, a Republican President, and 7 Republican appointed judges out of the 9 justices on the Supreme Court. And yet, no legislation was ever passed to challenge Roe v. Wade.
 
In addition to that are the pro-death attitudes of both Democrat and Republican neo-cons who are always pushing for us to invade countries, topple other people's leaders, and otherwise start wars. Murder is evil whether it stems from abortion or unjust war -- and they're pushing for one now, in Syria, even as we speak -- a war that, given who's involved, could so extremely easily morph into WWIII.

we're already Cold World  War3

there appears to be evidence Assad was behind the gas attack. I don't believe attacking him will start a full fledged war because why would Assad be that self destructive? Then again... it goes back to the Q of.. why would Assad do such a hting knowing  the US.. but then, maybe he thinks Trump is just a glorified Obama?

I don't know.. Only God knows and he aint tellin'
(04-11-2018, 05:38 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: [ -> ]i never said it made them no longer Catholic... well, maybe i did imply that but i know all that you say here except... hmm... where is that part i didn't agree with... The penalty doesn't apply to politicians?

yes it does, if they promote abortion. Every time they refer to themselves as "pro choice" they are promoting abortion and that is an excommunicatable offense
As MM stated, just supporting abortion does not excommunicate someone. They are only excommunicated if they directly facilitate a successful abortion. Otherwise they have committed a grave sin but they are not excommunicated.

Excommunication is a canonical penalty and is thus subject to the Church's decisions and legislations. Similar to how the Church sets the regulations for receiving indulgences or the validity of certain sacraments. 

Now one could argue that supporting abortion counts as some sort of heresy but that's a whole different hoopla.
(04-11-2018, 05:38 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: [ -> ]i never said it made them no longer Catholic... well, maybe i did imply that but i know all that you say here except... hmm... where is that part i didn't agree with... The penalty doesn't apply to politicians?

yes it does, if they promote abortion. Every time they refer to themselves as "pro choice" they are promoting abortion and that is an excommunicatable offense

The law says nothing about promoting abortion. It penalizes the successful procuring of an abortion. One is excommunicate if, knowing the penalty, one directly procures, performs or directly cooperates or participates in a particular abortion.

A politican who publicly promotes abortion is in grave sin, and by Canon Law should be excommunicated if they refuse to repent. Yet while it is an "excommunicatable offense", such promotion not an automatic excommunication.

No moral theologian or canonist takes the opinion that a politician who promotes abortion falls under the penalty of Canon 1398.

The law is explicit and clear, effectu secuto, and Canon Law, when it involves a penalty must be interpreted strictly (Canon 18) : " Laws which establish a penalty, restrict the free exercise of rights, or contain an exception from the law are subject to strict interpretation."
(04-11-2018, 06:32 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-11-2018, 05:38 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: [ -> ]i never said it made them no longer Catholic... well, maybe i did imply that but i know all that you say here except... hmm... where is that part i didn't agree with... The penalty doesn't apply to politicians?

yes it does, if they promote abortion. Every time they refer to themselves as "pro choice" they are promoting abortion and that is an excommunicatable offense

The law says nothing about promoting abortion. It penalizes the successful procuring of an abortion. One is excommunicate if, knowing the penalty, one directly procures, performs or directly cooperates or participates in a particular abortion.

A politican who publicly promotes abortion is in grave sin, and by Canon Law should be excommunicated if they refuse to repent. Yet while it is an "excommunicatable offense", such promotion not an automatic excommunication.

No moral theologian or canonist takes the opinion that a politician who promotes abortion falls under the penalty of Canon 1398.

The law is explicit and clear, effectu secuto, and Canon Law, when it involves a penalty must be interpreted strictly (Canon 18) : " Laws which establish a penalty, restrict the free exercise of rights, or contain an exception from the law are subject to strict interpretation."

well, i think you and i read 2 different catechism. But then, i am not sure that's where i read about this promoting abortion offense... So, since i am left to think for myself, i say it is definitely an excommunicatable offense...

If someone told you to kill your neighbor, i am sure you would agree that person (forgot to say such murderous person is Catholic) should be considered to be excommunicated
(04-11-2018, 06:36 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-11-2018, 06:32 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-11-2018, 05:38 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: [ -> ]i never said it made them no longer Catholic... well, maybe i did imply that but i know all that you say here except... hmm... where is that part i didn't agree with... The penalty doesn't apply to politicians?

yes it does, if they promote abortion. Every time they refer to themselves as "pro choice" they are promoting abortion and that is an excommunicatable offense

The law says nothing about promoting abortion. It penalizes the successful procuring of an abortion. One is excommunicate if, knowing the penalty, one directly procures, performs or directly cooperates or participates in a particular abortion.

A politican who publicly promotes abortion is in grave sin, and by Canon Law should be excommunicated if they refuse to repent. Yet while it is an "excommunicatable offense", such promotion not an automatic excommunication.

No moral theologian or canonist takes the opinion that a politician who promotes abortion falls under the penalty of Canon 1398.

The law is explicit and clear, effectu secuto, and Canon Law, when it involves a penalty must be interpreted strictly (Canon 18) : " Laws which establish a penalty, restrict the free exercise of rights, or contain an exception from the law are subject to strict interpretation."

well, i think you and i read 2 different catechism. But then, i am not sure that's where i read about this promoting abortion offense... So, since i am left to think for myself, i say it is definitely an excommunicatable offense...

If someone told you to kill your neighbor, i am sure you would agree that person (forgot to say such murderous person is Catholic) should be considered to be excommunicated

I think I studied graduate-level Moral Theology and Canon Law ... sorry, but you're incorrect.
also a bishop does not need to reverse the excommunication. most bishops in america have given that permission to the priests upon confession.
Pages: 1 2