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So after the last discussion on sex in marriage and oral stimulation I wanted to look more into it.  It seems there are many opinions on oral stimulation and/or completion for the “woman only”.  Here is what I have seen

Senses Traditious- the priest claims theologians say no oral stimulation imulation for the man but they say it’s ok for the women.  Also the women stimulating herself during intercourse and after are ok.

Catholic Answers: a new Priest says oral sex is not ok but manual stimulation is and references st. Alphonsus.  Although he makes some reference to what the saint says about Oral contact in passing without penetration that can show reverence or affection.  (As to what exactly in passing means is lost to me.) https://www.catholic.com/qa/catholic-the...l-pleasure

I have also heard people say because a Pope said we can follow the saints teachings then that means he is right.  Yet just below a Pope seems to teach opposite of the saint.

EWTN answers by priests- this priests sites Pope Pius XII who said anything is allowable in marriage that ends properly.  He shows on the site where it comes from, what documents. https://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessa...ber=507442

Another EWTN priest- another priests condemn oral sex and then later supports this position Kos oral sex for men is wrong but husband to wife oral sex is ok.  http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=456002&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

The list can continue to go on and on with theologians like West, Popack, Hildebrand and so on.  You have so many differening opinions on this by some many different learned people.  Not to mention it seems priests have different opinions.  So what is an Catholic couple to do?  How is a Catholic couple supposed to decide what is right and what is wrong?  I don’t subscribe or believe it is good to have the belief that one should just go to the extreme to be 100% certain to avoid sin because then you get the wackos who say the female orgasm is not important and it’s not needed so if the women never orgasms it’s ok since only vaginal sex is allowed.

So I was wanting to hear from others.  I don’t care to hear about reasons for oral stimulation for the man.  Being a man myself I can support the teachings against oral stimulation for the man.  Even if I don’t completely understand the line of thinking I can support saying oral stimulation for the man is to be avoided.  The man has vaginal intercourse, the intended goal for his completion.  What I am more wondering about is oral sex or oral stimulation for the women.  Thoughts?
Until it is dogmatically defined by the Holy Magisterium, do your best to follow what prior theologians have said, coupled with what the Church says today, and be guided by prayer and reasoning.
(04-29-2018, 11:15 AM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Until it is dogmatically defined by the Holy Magisterium, do your best to follow what prior theologians have said, coupled with what the Church says today, and be guided by prayer and reasoning.

But there in lies the problem.  Theologians don’t agree.  If there was some agreement then this question would not be asked all over the Internet on all manner of trad and modern websites.  Priests teach differently on this matter.  Popes have weighed in.  It’s not even a matter of trad vs modern.  Cause even trad priests or theologians don’t agree.
Okay, I'm probably a heretic on this, but for my dear wife and I, we went with the belief, that whatever we did in our bedroom together was between us and our business and no one else. What we do together, in our Matrimonial bed is between us alone. We believed and I still do, that it is not anyone's business, Church or Government. God sees what we do and I submit to His judgement, but what we do is in love and under marital seal.

To Him alone and to each other, do we answer.
(04-29-2018, 12:41 PM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2018, 11:15 AM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Until it is dogmatically defined by the Holy Magisterium, do your best to follow what prior theologians have said, coupled with what the Church says today, and be guided by prayer and reasoning.

But there in lies the problem.  Theologians don’t agree.  If there was some agreement then this question would not be asked all over the Internet on all manner of trad and modern websites.  Priests teach differently on this matter.  Popes have weighed in.  It’s not even a matter of trad vs modern.  Cause even trad priests or theologians don’t agree.

Yes that was my point. Listen to all the points argued and with prayer and reasoning come to your own conclusions based on those opinions of worthy theologians.

Until the Holy Magisterium declares otherwise, you will need to make up your own conclusions.
(04-29-2018, 01:32 PM)Zedta Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, I'm probably a heretic on this, but for my dear wife and I, we went with the belief, that whatever we did in our bedroom together was between us and our business and no one else. What we do together, in our Matrimonial bed is between us alone. We believed and I still do, that it is not anyone's business, Church or Government. God sees what we do and I submit to His judgement, but what we do is in love and under marital seal.

To Him alone and to each other, do we answer.

If you think it's heresy (which it is) why would you hold that opinion?
(04-29-2018, 02:28 PM)For Petes Sake Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-29-2018, 01:32 PM)Zedta Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, I'm probably a heretic on this, but for my dear wife and I, we went with the belief, that whatever we did in our bedroom together was between us and our business and no one else. What we do together, in our Matrimonial bed is between us alone. We believed and I still do, that it is not anyone's business, Church or Government. God sees what we do and I submit to His judgement, but what we do is in love and under marital seal.

To Him alone and to each other, do we answer.

If you think it's heresy (which it is) why would you hold that opinion?

Because I follow my conscience in all things and in this particular subject, I've stated my long-held beliefs. I see nor have seen anything that makes better sense and the "Magisterium" not withstanding, I will follow my conscience.

If that makes me an heretic, so be it. But I deny the authority of the Church to be judges in the personal activities of my wife and I, acting alone and not involving anyone else in any way, in the privacy of our bedroom as involves our sexual activity. Only God may judge us...period and I am fine with that and unashamed.
Humanae Vitae
4.This kind of question requires from the teaching authority of the Church a new and deeper reflection on the principles of the moral teaching on marriage—a teaching which is based on the natural law as illuminated and enriched by divine Revelation.
No member of the faithful could possibly deny that the Church is competent in her magisterium to interpret the natural moral law. It is in fact indisputable, as Our predecessors have many times declared, (l) that Jesus Christ, when He communicated His divine power to Peter and the other Apostles and sent them to teach all nations His commandments, (2) constituted them as the authentic guardians and interpreters of the whole moral law, not only, that is, of the law of the Gospel but also of the natural law. For the natural law, too, declares the will of God, and its faithful observance is necessary for men's eternal salvation. (3)
In carrying out this mandate, the Church has always issued appropriate documents on the nature of marriage, the correct use of conjugal rights, and the duties of spouses. These documents have been more copious in recent times. (4)
I basically agree with what Zedta has said (post #4 under this topic).

The problem with getting into the minute details behind havok579257's original question (and this is no slam against havoc for having asked it) is that we risk getting overly legalistic, and, quite frankly, prurient, by trying to tease out exactly what is "right" or "wrong" in the bedroom, between two married and consenting heterosexuals.

As I understand it, there is an extensive literature on this subject within certain Jewish circles, to the point of absurdity; Newsweek did an article on this years ago where it used one example of a Jewish religious scholar/professor asking questions to his (Jewish) class, one of which was along the lines of:

"In the modern day, if a virginal woman is sunbathing and the man working on her roof falls from the roof and lands on her in such a way as to penetrate her, is the woman still to be considered a virgin?"

These sorts of questions were causing all kinds of consternation among the Jewish laity, according to the article.

Likewise, reading back over both Protestant AND Catholic history, one can find many examples where ministers and priests used to tell their parishioners exactly which side of the bed a husband and a wife were to sleep on, as well as which sexual positions were acceptable (often, it was only the one we've come to know as the "missionary" position, with the woman on the bottom). I seem to recall reading that often it was also considered wrong for the woman to orgasm.

Here on FishEaters, I have even read someone try to say that the reason Sara's seven husbands in Tobit all died on the wedding night was because they were trying to engage in non-vaginal intercourse.

C'mon.

There is a reason the Bible does not go into much detail about what a married couple is/is not supposed to do in the intimacy of their bedroom (the only outright prohibitions I can find, aside from possibly Genesis 38, are the numerous prohibitions against sodomy mentioned in Scripture, which most Church literature that I have read has been interpreted to mean anal sex [including between heterosexuals] although I know some people will try to claim it means much more than just that particular act [personally, I disagree with those people]).

I would say to pray, glean what you can from the Scriptures, and follow what Church teaching says about contraception-- and do the rest in love and in private with your spouse, and I think you'll be okay.
(04-29-2018, 02:48 PM)Zedta Wrote: [ -> ]Because I follow my conscience in all things and in this particular subject, I've stated my long-held beliefs. I see nor have seen anything that makes better sense and the "Magisterium" not withstanding, I will follow my conscience.

If that makes me an heretic, so be it. But I deny the authority of the Church to be judges in the personal activities of my wife and I, acting alone and not involving anyone else in any way, in the privacy of our bedroom as involves our sexual activity. Only God may judge us...period and I am fine with that and unashamed.

Firstly, you need to follow your conscience. In fact that's precisely what you are meant to do. Your conscience is your proximate rule of morality.

But that conscience is not its own rule, and must be formed rightly. Part of that is forming your conscience based on the Eternal Law (Natural Law and Divine Positive Law) and then how the various moral authorities specify how that Natural Law is to be applied (human law).

The Magisterium plays a role here, because it speaks for God as our teacher. We know what God want us to know through the teacher He gave : The Church. She speaks in order to form our conscience, and it is that conscience we follow.

So you're right in one aspect. You must follow your conscience. On the second aspect you are right that God will judge, but He tells us how He will judge through the teacher He has established. Thus you go to far, effectively suggesting that "only God can tell me what to do" when He is doing that through the Church.

You're effectively saying that were you a soldier, "I will only do what my Commander-in-Chief wants" and then suggesting that somehow his messenger with a letter signed by him commanding you to do something is insufficient, when clearly it's from that Commander-in-Chief.
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